Frankie

Yep, the more games the better for the lad. Papac didn't have a great game against Caley so, while he may not be dropped anytime soon, it's good to know that Smith is applying pressure on his level of performance.

SFA are going to do an about turn on this apparently...

I can understand that point of view and part of me is glad that he hasn't. However, sometimes, drastic action has to be taken and as soon as Reid/Liewell started commenting about our club, he should have stood up and savaged them for it. There is far too much pussy-footing around when it comes to Celtic FC.

This is the problem you see... UEFA have allowed themselves to be dictated to by any two-bit organisation who feel they have the right to comment. Spiers, NbM, Celtic fans etc etc but because our club won't stand up for itself, they take these comments at face value instead of ignoring them. Meanwhile, when we complain about stuff, we get nowhere because Celtic do defend themselves while other 'authority' figures prevaricate. At the very outset, UEFA should have stuck by their initial decision two years ago. The fact they didn't means we have the current ludicrous status quo in Scotland.

Well, what did you hear? As that's what I remember and that's what it is in the official minute.

Well obviously he did know (or thought he did) so he was stating the RST's position/opinion on the sanction which was to support the public calling for fans to stop singing it. This position/opinion could have been challenged by those present. It wasn't.

Well I can only go on the information supplied to me over my 3 years... In each year I served, new memberships and the membership numbers generally were always increasing steadily enough. Not at a tremendous rate but that's why - about 6 months before I resigned - we embarked on trying to improve communication to avoid the valid problems you speak of and increase numbers more effectively. I believe such improvements were promised after I resigned. Not sure if they have delivered as I am no longer a member. I also don't remember many bans from FF at the time of TBB issue? Regarding what we could have done at the time, I understand why you think we did nothing. That isn't true though as we did try our best to change the club's mind as well as point out the inconsistencies but the UEFA sanction was clear enough (to the people who seen it) so we could do little else but work with the club to ensure the sanction wasn't breached. Does that mean we should have left the song consigned to the bin? No and I remember trying to persuade the board that we should have been pushing UEFA (and others) on the subject. To not enough agreement unfortunately. Since then I've personally tried to highlight the sham of the whole industry including writing my own empirical thesis on it. Not much of a contribution but about as much as one person can do.

When one looks at the broader picture (ie the UEFA charge and initial/final decisions) then the wording seems reasonable enough to be part of any directive. In the absence of any evidence whatsoever for the opposing viewpoint (namely that the club banned TBB and not UEFA) then there is no other conclusion I can take.

The opinion was given by DE that we had to stop singing the song because of the UEFA sanction... No-one contested this as far as I remember.

I disagree. The RST membership numbers always steadily increased up until this year I believe. The unfortunate happenings of last Spring may have killed the organisation (IMO) but TBB incident certainly didn't - even if some may have disagreed with the Trust working with the club on enforcing TBB ban. Sure, looking back, perhaps the organisation may have done a bit more to challenge the ruling but, as I've said earlier, the people who represented us at the meetings with the club are far from the type of people who'd be complicit with SDM for any reason.

All rather puzzling but the fact remains the club were censured for discriminatory singing and a ban was put in place by UEFA IMO. Your experience with the police shows up the inconsistency with how the subject generally is approached. It is all a sham and the club should be saying so.

It sure is becoming circular. Again I can only say read the links I posted earlier. But to save you the time here is what was written on the Assembly website: As such, TBB is 'specifically and unambiguously banned' from any venue for Rangers fans. Now, I don't know for a fact if these words are UEFA's or Rangers' but I'm pretty sure they are from UEFA as I simply don't believe there would be any reason for the club to make such stuff up - given the censures mentioned on the UEFA websites.

No idea why they didn't publish it on the website. Perhaps they didn't want all the dirty linen made public for interlopers to use? Nevertheless they did discuss the directive with fans' representatives and clauses from the directive were made available via the Assembly link I provided. With regards to the alleged ban, well, again, if the song was part of the censure (and it was the only one specified) then of course it would then be banned thereafter. That may well be supposition but I can't see any other conclusion to take. They'd hardly fine us for it and allow us to keep singing it. There's no doubt the issue leaves a bad taste in the mouth for all of us but I'm not sure denying the ban exists really helps address the other more valid issues with the decision.

Exactly correct and exactly what Murray should have said. I can understand why he doesn't want to name other teams and specific chants but he surely can't be far from it when Peat allows himself to comment on Rangers' alleged problems but not Celtic's.

Agree with all of that MF... The signs from Bain and now SDM is that they are finally starting to lose their patience. At least two years too late and I doubt they'll defend the club strongly enough but I do think we're getting somewhere. I do think this is more to do with Reid/Liewell's recent comments than him taking the huff at a media that have sensationalised their coverage for several years now.

http://www.rangers.premiumtv.co.uk/page/News/NewsDetail/0,,5~1442381,00.html Isn't it funny how once again when be gets criticised, he comes out all guns blazing? Let me say that if he is so serious about people exaggerating the problem, why doesn't he take them directly and individually to task on it. Start by refusing to co-operate with them and refusing their sponsorship monies.

A fine idea mate... Obviously there have been discussions with the club previously regarding a museum but Bain (at least) feels the stadium itself is one so a stand-alone venue isn't required. I disagree with that view but if he feels that strongly about it, then it is time they did more to publicise our history than a wee tour (even if most people talk warmly of it). Your idea of having the odd match-day lecture is a sound one and there is certainly space in the concourses to accommodate it. Good to read a constructive thread...

Did you read the links I supplied? The song in question was the Billy Boys and was specifically referred to in the original UEFA charge where they first found us not guilty. After this was bizarrely appealed, they then fined us so it goes without saying that specific song was the reason for the 'discriminatory' charge. Considering the club capitulated, then we had no option other than to stop singing it because BB was the focus of the earlier censure. If you can't see that, then what do you think we were punished for? And I'm certainly not doing SDM's job for him. I'm merely trying to look at the situation from an objective point of view. Of course, I don't have the clear evidence but I don't think we really need it when we follow the time-line above. Were we hard done by? Of course... Did the club bend over too easily? Of course... Is there some conspiracy theory of whether or not UEFA or Rangers banned this song? I don't think so... So until you can provide some concrete evidence of what you allege, then I'll thank you for allowing me to have my own opinion based on the evidence that does exist. In the meantime, I've offered to try and find out a bit more because, at this moment in time, the most interesting thing for me is that no matter who invoked the directive, we are clearly breaking it without punishment.

The evidence is clear enough though - we were fined for singing the Billy Boys. As such, the song was banned thereafter to avoid further censures. The club were hardly going to allow the singing of it, given this. Sure, we can debate whether or not they should have done more to defend us (and we may also debate how they enforced this ban) but the ban itself is obvious enough. You do agree with that simple reasoning as you seem rather keen to ignore that in favour of more complex theories? Also, the Assembly were consulted as well so all supporters were represented in 'official' sense even if we know the Assembly may not be properly constituted. What do you propose doing to investigate further?

1. UEFA fined us for singing discriminatory songs - namely the Billy Boys. As such, of course it would be banned thereafter. Or we'd face further punishment - surely that much is obvious? 2. Rangers have made the alleged directive public via working with fan groups as well as using clauses of the alleged document via the Assembly site. As a shareholder, I'd have though we could ask for more information though. 3. Sometimes the simplest solution has to be taken for complex puzzles. You've already said you cannot justify any conspiracy theory. As such, it's difficult to go with this when we consider the links provided earlier and '1' above. Rightly or wrongly, the song did need to go. The problem I have is that no-one has tried hard enough to bring it back - even sans fen!an. 4. Given the club capitulated on the appealed decision, I'm not sure how they could have allowed the singing of the song thereafter given we'd be punished again. Does this mean they were complicit in a fake UEFA directive just to ensure the ban while trying to retain fan credibility? It's not beyond the realms of possibility but I just can't see some of the names present in these meetings (none of them SDM fans) buying this. Remember not all were FF/RST people. And those that were, are hardly the type of people to provide Murray's cover. 5. Funnily enough, the issue may come to a head soon. The new 'Edu, Edu' song clearly breaches the alleged directive but no action has been taken and neither has the song had negative media coverage. As such, it won't be long until another BB version is heard - I'm certain of it. It will be interesting to see the reaction then. 6. I may not have as big a shovel as some (ask my wife), but sometimes it's not the size of the tool that counts but how it is wielded (ask my wife). Let me look into it as '5' has interested me over the last few home games. I may or may not be able to shed (sic) any more light on the subject but I'll enjoying annoying a few people. I may even write a main site article.

The loss of BB did mean a lot actually. It still does. I trusted the people who had said they'd seen the document and advocated following the directive. Thus, I was happy to do that at the time in the absence of other strategies then. After that I worked extremely hard in personally trying to expose the double-standards by formulating a full report on the sham. No-one else has done anything similar as far as I can see. So what did Limacher say to you? Surely he confirmed the banning?

Disagree BD... Obviously playing the X-Factor tune was a bit crass but generally I think the club deserve a bit of credit for inviting the troops and I enjoyed the event. The lads were sitting just in front of us in BF and they had a great time. Just as emotional before the game was when they were applauded and cheered into the WRC for a few drinks. The club should gain from a bit of positive PR from this. It will be interesting to see how the media spin it.

It's a fair point so I can understand your frustration. At an informal meeting with the club (before the St Johnstone defeat a couple of years back), this subject arose. I was there with DE, SM and MM IIRC. Bain showed us a document which he claimed was the UEFA edict. I never got the chance to read it but took him and SDM (who was also present) at their word. Obviously, I don't trust either of them all that much but had already been told about the document from other board members. Have these people actually seen the document? Was it fake? Were Rangers complicit with UEFA in the directive? Were supporters duped? All valid enough questions but IMO it's questions we'll never find out the answer to. But, I'll tell you what, I'll try and do a bit of digging.

Possibly. But I personally doubt it. Remember UEFA backed the club initially and the club also spent a lot of time on their defence. The capitulation after the Kapl appeal is bizarre but I don't buy the club being part of some conspiracy.

http://www.gersnetonline.net/newsite/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=690&Itemid=1 Think I'll give it to Davis who I though was immense today...