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  1. Is that his opinion on Walters tactics.:fish:
  2. RANGERS directors will hold a board meeting today on the eve of what promises to be one of the stormiest annual general meetings in the club's history. At the board meeting, the directors will discuss how to deal with questions over how the club is being run which are likely to be raised from the floor at tomorrow's AGM. It follows statements made by manager Walter Smith that the club's bank, Lloyds Banking Group, was in effect running the in-debt club, statements refuted by owner Sir David Murray. Company turn-around specialist Donald Muir was elected to the board in October and is likely to be re-elected in Monday's meeting, but it could be opposed. There are fears among Rangers directors that it is the difficulties in other areas of Sir David's huge business interests (Murray International Holdings has debts of �£759 million) that are prompting the bank to keep a far closer eye on the club. Last week in Scotland on Sunday, Sir David confirmed that he was prepared to sell the club, and said that Rangers had to live within their financial means, but denied the bank was running the club. But sources close to Rangers have told Scotland on Sunday: "Senior directors believe that Donald Muir is on the board to pursue the agenda of the bank." Muir is employed by the Murray group, but it is believed the bank were closely consulted before his appointment. Rangers announced last month that they had made an annual loss of �£12.7m for the year to 30 June, 2009, with their debt rising to �£31.1m.
  3. On the morning of Monday December 7th, thousands of Rangers shareholders will again converge on Ibrox Stadium to find out the latest information about the club. Most directors will be there - including new chairman Alastair Johnston and alleged Lloyds Bank stooge Donald Muir - so this will be the supporters' chance to question them on recent events. Obviously there has been a lot of debate in the media about the current situation at the club. Why did Sir David Murray step down? Is Alastair Johnston really in control? What influence do the bank have on the business? What part does the bleak future of Murray International Holdings play? How will the next two transfer windows affect our team on the park? What happens if we don't qualify for the Champions' League next season? Can the fans own the club? Would Alastair Johnston consider an interim measure to give the support increased representative powers? We could go on all day here but we want to hear your suggestions... Get involved and post now. Or if preferred email to settingthestandard@gersnetonline.co.uk
  4. IAN DURRANT claims Walter Smith stands on the brink of pulling off his greatest achievement with Rangers. The Ibrox coach has given a rare insight into his gaffer's defiant state of mind as he tackles the club's crippling financial crisis. He predicts history will one day portray Smith as the saviour of Rangers - in the same way Fergus McCann was credited with hauling Celtic back from the verge of ruin in the summer of 1994. Durrant's position as Smith's sidekick in the stand has given him a unique insight into what makes the nine-in-a-row boss tick. He describes the 61-year-old as a man on a mission, hellbent on steering the debt-ridden club through the rockiest times in its 135-year history. Durrant said: "Fifteen years ago, Fergus McCann and all the Celtic boys rallied round and saved their club. Walter's on a mission to save Rangers. And if he's at the helm, Rangers will succeed, it's as simple as that. "In a perfect world I think he could have stepped aside two seasons ago after reaching the UEFA Cup Final. Or even last season, when he won the double, if things had gone to plan afterwards. "I thought at the end of last season, after winning the double and getting the league back - which was the most important thing - that would have been the time to bow out. "But he said to us he had unfinished business and now everyone knows what that was. The club's financial situation has given him that spark again. He's got a motivation now to prove we can get through this. "I look at his desire and the fact is, he doesn't need this. He chose to come back when we weren't as strong financially as we had been, so he had to juggle things about. "He brought in Davie Weir, who has been unbelievable, then Ugo Ehiogu and they steadied the ship. It's been a constant battle ever since, though Walter's never complained. "He will hand the club over - whether it's to Coisty, Kenny McDowall and myself or someone else - and it will still be in place. "Getting us through the next six months will be his greatest achievement. And he will do it, because his desire to succeed will take him there. He's a Rangers fan and it's his club." Smith's contract expires in January, along with that of his No2 Ally McCoist, and there have been suggestions that pressure from the bankers could mean the pair are not offered a new deal or will be asked to take a pay cut. Durrant believes that would be a bigger own goal and costlier blunder than anything seen during the global banking crisis. He said: "If anyone tried to move Walter out, they'd be making a big mistake. "I'm not saying no one else could do it, but it's an unsteady ship and slowly but surely the weight on us has been lifted in the past two weeks. You can see a difference in the whole club. "The one thing about the gaffer is he gets the right reaction from players." As Rangers' money problems piled up, Donald Muir from Lloyds Banking Group was crowbarred on to the Rangers board. It was the first visible sign drastic changes were going on behind the scenes and rumours and counter-rumours began to fly around the Ibrox club. To make matters worse, results started to suffer, culminating in back-to-back 4-1 home thrashings in the Champions League by Spanish cracks Sevilla and Romanian minnows Unirea Urziceni. Smith had seen enough and called a crisis council with his trusted coaching staff then his players. Then he went public with a bombshell statement after a league match with Hibs to say the bankers were running Rangers - and all hell broke loose! Lloyds, then Rangers, issued statements saying Smith had got it completely wrong and the club was still in charge of its affairs. But Durrant believes, as far as what was happening on the pitch was concerned, no one can dispute that Smith got it totally right. He said: "The gaffer had to ask the players for one final push and the boys took a lot of belief from him. It's not a nice position when there's talk of redundancies. It leaves a stale feeling. "You know there are other people at the club who rely on you. People who have been working here for a long time could lose their jobs. "Football isn't their job but they are affected by what happens on the park. We know there's a recession on but we have to get on with it. It's the same with the gaffer. "Obviously, he's the manager of Rangers but he's also a supporter and he was hurting. There were times when he was low - we've all been low. "You want to get on with your job and play the game, but everything that was happening with the club was making the front page of the papers rather than the back. That got to him a bit. "You can hear the tone of his voice change and you know he's hurting. But he sees Coisty, myself and Kenny as a younger group and he sees us being bubbly round about him and he gets a lift from it. He's surrounded himself by good indians. "He'd never come in and let you see him at rock bottom though, he's too proud a man to do that. But since he said his thing about the bank, and it's come out in the open, there's been a freshness about the place. "For two or three weeks the staff were tip-toeing on egg shells and we didn't know what was happening. We were all hearing the banks were going to pull the plug and it creates a bit of uncertainty. "I'm not making excuses for the Sevilla or Unirea games, but there was uncertainty which may have affected the players. "I hope it didn't because that's what we're here to deal with, so we sat down and talked about it. "We weren't playing well and yet we knew we had a good group of players - guys who had bent over backwards for us the previous season by winning a double. "Walter just wondered aloud if that uncertainty was causing problems and since then I think we've played our best stuff of the season against Hibs, Dundee United and Unirea. They were great open games." Durrant has seen the pressure mount on the other side of Glasgow too as Tony Mowbray has come under the microscope in his new job at Celtic. At times, Mowbray has questioned the quality of his players and given them an ultimatum to shape up or ship out. That's an approach Durrant never expects to see from Smith. He added: "It's the hardest job in the world. I've known Celtic boys from years ago and we all know it's the same pressure as being at Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool. "You have to win every game. Every minute now, you're being scrutinised. Walter never criticises the players publicly. He takes the responsibility, he's old school that way. In football, you always say 'get the dressing room on your side' and he has that. "He has one last piece of unfinished business and I'll be damned if he doesn't do it." http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/scottish/scottish_sport/587228/Legend-reveals-how-Ibrox-boss-is-suffering-through-clubs-crisis.html
  5. RANGERS chairman Alastair Johnston has confirmed what SportTimes told our readers nearly a fortnight ago - Lloyds Banking Group will take drastic action at the end of the season if no buyer can be found for the Ibrox club. New Gers supremo Johnston flew from his base in the USA to Glasgow this week before heading out to Romania for the club's Champions League showdown with Unirea Urziceni in Bucharest. Hours before that game he outlined the worst-case-scenario the Scottish champions face to a group of corporate fans who were attending the game. Speaking at the team hotel before kick-off in Steaua's stadium, the IMG vice-chairman told the wealthy supporters that Lloyds will implement savage cuts and dramatically scale down the ambition of the club if no buyer comes forward by next May. advertisement The club, who are now being run by the bank's man Donald Muir, are also likely to off-load star names in January should decent money be tabled. The only way to avert this eventuality, which will include most of the first-team squad being sold off to reduce substantial debts believed to total around �£30 million, is for Sir David Murray's 90 per cent stake to be snapped up. Johnston personally appealed to the business-men in Bucharest to make themselves known to the club's hierarchy if they had any intention of investing. http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/display.var.2534239.0.ibrox_leader_spells_it_out.php
  6. The MIH accounts have been delayed until towards the middle of next year, so I thought I would take a quick look at a couple of major problems that they may be having, based on the last set of accounts that they issued as at January 2008. Property values/net assets Net assets (total assets less total liabilities) in the accounts were shown as �£157m. Included in this is property of �£545m. Commercial property values have fallen 30% since the start of 2008, which would equate to �£163m. If this new valuation was applied to the 2008 accounts then the Murray group would have net liabilities and would be technically insolvent. It is perfectly possible to be technically insolvent, while still being able to repay debt. This is the next area to be looked at. Repayment of debt The accounts show that MIH had �£4m of cash, but had loans of �£26m to repay in the year to 31 January 2009. Perhaps not the biggest problem in the world. However in the current year, MIH had a whacking �£406m of loans to repay, with no apparent way of doing so. Given the current banking crisis, it is not thought that MIH would have been able to renegotiate the payment terms of these loans, and must have resulted in MIH defaulting on some of its repayments and perhaps some related banking covenants. This would be what has allowed the bank to insist on the appointment of Donald Muir to the board of both Rangers and the Premier Property Group, and is apparantly giving him the power to over-rule the other Rangers board members. Lloyds obviously want to recoup as much of this cash as quickly as possible, and has them forcing changes on Rangers who had a managable financial situation, at least in the short term of the next 12-18 months. When people buy a house it is viewed a long term asset and they pay for it with a long term mortgage. Why MIH decided to finance the purchase of commercial property with short term loans is unexplainable and is possibly the biggest mistake David Murray has made in his career, and could ultimately result in MIH being wiped out. It has certainly put Rangers under threat but it must be hoped that Rangers emerge unscathed and looking forward to a bright future if a new owner can be found. Caveat - This is a very simplistic view and there are a number of assumptions made. I have not gone into technical details to make it easier for the reader to understand. Property values are said to have fallen 22.5% during 2008 and have fallen a further 7.5% in the 9 months to Sept 2010 (source IPD UK balanced Monthly Funds). However a well-respected fund manager told me that it was nearer 43%. MIH's property may be of a higher quality and may not have fallen by as much, but Ibrox is overvalued and as such I don't think 30% is unreasonable, although I am no expert on commercial property.
  7. Published on 1 Nov 2009 Talks have been held about inviting thousands of Rangers supporters to help fund a rescue package for the financially-stricken club. South Africa-based millionaire Dave King remains the leading contender to buy out current owner Sir David Murray, with his intentions expected to be revealed this month. Scotland-based businessmen Douglas Park and Paul Murray have also been linked to a joint bid with Mr King to rescue Rangers, who are Ã?£30million in debt, but no moves have yet been made. But the Sunday Herald can reveal that tentative talks have taken place involving parties interested in taking over Rangers about creating a revolutionised club answerable to "members", who would pay an annual fee on top of their season ticket costs. This is the successful and popular model of "social ownership" found at leading clubs such as Barcelona and Real Madrid in Spain. Essentially, this could be ââ?¬Ë?Plan Bââ?¬â?¢ if Mr King, or others, donââ?¬â?¢t emerge and firm up their interest in the club. The proposal would mean thousands of rank-and-file Rangers fans investing to lend financial muscle to some of the parties interested in taking Turn to page 2 Rangers out of the grip of Lloyds Banking Group, which has stepped in after the club fell into heavy debt under Sir David Murray. In return, the fans could have perhaps 33% or more of the shareholding as well as a couple of representatives on an entirely new board of directors. With money being poured in by thousands of fans, as per the Barcelona model, Rangers could become the first major members-owned club in British football, albeit that a handful of significant investors would have large individual stakes and would occupy some of the office-bearing positions. The extent of Rangersââ?¬â?¢ financial crisis was revealed last weekend when manager Walter Smith claimed the bank was running the club. Lloyds subsequently denied that but the bankââ?¬â?¢s interests are now represented on the board by new director Donald Muir. Rangers will not sign any new players in the January transfer window and may have to sell a senior one such as Steven Davis if Lloyds is determined to claw back Ã?£3m of the Ã?£30m owed to it. Sir David still owns 92% of the shareholding, but essentially Lloyds is dictating the terms of any eventual takeover. Mr King is uncomfortable about the current asking price and is now involved in a game of poker with the bank, which is believed to have been left reeling by the reaction from the Rangers support at large after our sister paper, The Herald, revealed the extent of their influence, the threat of administration and plans for swingeing cuts. Mr King is worth up to Ã?£300m but he is reluctant to meet the asking price of Ã?£1 for every Ã?£1 of debt ââ?¬â?? Lloyds is holding out for Ã?£30m ââ?¬â?? in the hope that it will eventually drop. Nothing will happen until Lloyds or Mr King change their stance. But if Mr King eventually walks away from a potential deal, others could step in and then ask fans to become fee-paying "members" in order to build a serious reserve of cash. The success of the venture would rely on the businessmen demonstrating that they were answerable to the fans who pay to become members. Fans spokesman David Edgar last night told the Sunday Herald that opening the club to ownership by members was an exciting, innovative idea. He claimed supporters would answer the call. "We have been exploring various avenues towards this with some of the potential investors," said Mr Edgar, of the Rangers Supporters Trust. "I think there is an interest and a desire in a sort of joint initiative, where you would have a major shareholder and also the fans playing a significant role in the club. I know this is something people are investigating. "Any new regime coming in has to understand that the fans do want to work with them. "But I would say that from the people we have been speaking to there are positive noises about that. "They understand that having the fans onside ââ?¬â?? via a membership scheme where people can invest and contribute to the football club, and have a say in the football club ââ?¬â?? works well abroad." Rangers fans could, for example, be asked to pay Ã?£1,000 each to become members, with payments spread over five years. At that level 30,000 fans buying membership would raise Ã?£30m. Sir David tried a share flotation in 2004, when Rangersââ?¬â?¢ debt soared to almost Ã?£74m, but it was snubbed by supporters. Of the Ã?£51m raised at the time, Sir David himself contributed Ã?£50m. "That was effectively a referendum on David Murrayââ?¬â?¢s performance," said Mr Edgar. "That was the fans saying ââ?¬Ë?you got us into this, you have to do something about itââ?¬â?¢. "If there was a new, dynamic, go-ahead regime coming into Rangers the fans would want to get involved and theyââ?¬â?¢d want to back it." Meanwhile, supporters upset by how Lloyds has introduced an unforgiving budgetary plan at Ibrox will protest with banners during todayââ?¬â?¢s SPL match against Dundee United at Tannadice. The banners will refer to new director Donald Muir as "the enemy within". http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rangers-rescue-plan-b-ask-fans-to-help-buy-the-club-1.929642
  8. An article by Contacts on RM, which hopefully he doesn't mind me reproducing. ================== If anyone ever doubted how much a Rangers man Walter Smith is then Saturday and the last couple of days again proved beyond doubt his love for the club. For 9 days now our club has been torn to shreds by Donald Muir and Lloyds yet Walter has put the club before himself and brought the subject out in the open when everyone else has been denying it. I have it on very good authority that our club has had a torrid time of since Mr Muir joined the club as director and hatchet man for the bank. His sole remit is to get as much of the bank�s money back as possible. There is a business plan to get the money back but no plan for the short, medium or long term future of the club. Donald Muir�s business plan has shocked everyone connected with the club and although those within have tried to reject his plan he is having none of it. His plan consists of selling at least 5 players in the January transfer window with no replacements other than the young reserve players. He is not offering the management team a new contract and expects them to work on a monthly deal. He is making decisions daily that result in the bank getting as much money out of Rangers Football Club with no care of any knock on effect. He will, of course, tell anyone that listens to him that he is only doing his job but none of that matters to any of us bears. The story in the Herald and the Evening Times are 100% accurate! Please do not doubt what has been written! Please do not doubt that our club was within days of administration! Please do not doubt Lloyds Group do not give a damn about Rangers Football Club! We all have to ask ourselves why Walter would want to make statements on the crisis at our club if he was not deeply concerned. Walter could sit back (like some of the players appear to be doing) and take the money but he is not and his love of the club has got him out fighting. Some may not want to believe this but Martin Bain has been constantly fighting the bank on every decision and defending the club to the hilt but these guys are ruthless. The bank has every intention of getting every penny they can from Rangers and they are happy for Rangers to be operated like a small scale SPL club with no ambition or desire. As well as selling players they want to increase ticket prices and implement huge cost cutting measures across every department. After reading this you would have thought they would happily sell the club at a reduced asking price as they have done with thousands of other businesses during the credit crunch but word has it that they are proving hard to deal with the people who want to invest in the club - or could there be preferred bidders? Now as fans what do we do? Obviously at first hand our options are limited but say we could get enough fans together who bank with the Lloyds Banking Group and start closing our personal / business accounts and move them elsewhere then surely they would have to sit up and take note that our fans are not going to sit back and let our club be asset stripped. Now I am not yet starting an appeal but I want all Rangers fans who hold an account with the Lloyds group to start looking around to see what other banks are offering. Make the phone call or look online at how easy it is to move banks and change your accounts over. Let�s take it a stage further and suggest that we start to boycott media organisations that take money from the Lloyds group and let us see how they feel when other people get too involved. Let us see the reaction from their top brass when their pathetic bullying of our club backfires on them. Walter has put the club before any personal gain and now it is time for the fans to take stock of the last few days and decide how we as a body of hundreds of thousands decide how we should take this matter further.
  9. DAVID Murray jnr last night insisted his father's company are still in charge of operations at Rangers and claimed "frustration" prompted Walter Smith's observation that Lloyds Banking Group are now running the financially-troubled Ibrox club. Smith yesterday refused to elaborate on his weekend comments, the manager even threatening to walk out of his broadcast media conference at Murray Park unless questions were restricted to tonight's Co-operative Insurance Cup quarter-final against Dundee at Dens Park. Lloyds later issued a statement denying they are in control of Rangers, who are currently �£30 million in debt, and firmly refuting one newspaper report which stated they had forced Sir David Murray's decision to step down as chairman of the club in August this year. Murray's son, managing director of the Murray Capital investment arm of Murray International Holdings who own almost 90 per cent of Rangers, told The Scotsman the club and Lloyds Banking Group are united in their search for a new owner. "The bank are going to continue to support the club until such time as we find somebody to buy the club," said Murray. "That is what we are trying to do. What they are trying to get towards is a sustainable business plan and so are we, if we can find someone who wants to buy the club. We have said that for a long time. Walter's comment came from a little bit of frustration. "My father doesn't have anything to add to what has been said. As we stand, there are no firm offers for the club. It is business as normal." In their most recent accounts, Murray International had a net debt of �£760 million, of which �£704 million was from bank loans, with �£432 million payable within one to two years. Lloyds now own an 11.4 per cent stake in Murray International, but Murray jnr says that has no bearing on the situation at Rangers. "They are separate issues," he added. "This is a separate matter to do with Rangers, there is nothing to say at this stage about Murray International. There is no direct correlation." Speculation surrounding the level of influence of Lloyds Banking Group at the club has been intense since the appointment of Donald Muir, a 50-year-old "business transformation specialist", as their representative on the Ibrox board of directors. Among Muir's assignments during the current recession was the rescue of the Northern Rock building society. But a Lloyds spokesman again insisted yesterday that they are working in tandem with the existing Rangers management team, rather than directing operations. "Lloyds Banking Group is a bank which provides finance to many companies and households across the country," said the spokesman. "Our interest is in helping those customers grow and prosper. We do not run or manage the companies that we bank. That is, quite properly, the responsibility of the management. "Given the recent press coverage, we would therefore like to be clear that Rangers FC is neither operated or run by Lloyds Banking Group. We would also like to be clear that Sir David Murray's decision to step down as Chairman was a personal decision and not at the behest of Lloyds Banking Group. "The Board of Rangers FC is developing and implementing a sustainable business plan and we have agreed to support this plan. The Group is aware of the unique position that football occupies across many Scottish communities and has been working with Scottish football clubs, including Rangers, for many years." But Smith's appreciation of the circumstances he is working under at Rangers, where he has been unable to buy a player since August 2008 and forced to radically cut the size of his squad, make it plain his concerns are valid. Clearly mindful of the reaction provoked by his weekend comments, Smith was unwilling to engage in further discussion on the issue with the media yesterday. "They (the club] issued a statement and that's it," was his response to the opening question on the financial position. The next enquiry received a similar answer, Smith saying: "I said the club issued a statement last night and that's it as far as I'm concerned, that is it finished with." He did, however, stress again that the speculation surrounding the club and the future of both its management and playing staff, is having an impact. "If there is a level of negativity around the place, it affects everyone, not just the players," he said. "The thing that we have to concentrate on is the results of the games. "We had an extremely poor result in the Champions League last week and we had a decent game with Hibs, and both teams deserve a bit of credit for the way they played. "Now we have a difficult cup tie coming up and, while there may be levels of negativity around the place, we don't and can't allow it to affect us. You've got to overcome that aspect of it." http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Rangers-still-being-run-by.5767861.jp
  10. Exclusive By Darryl Broadfoot WALTER SMITH has reacted furiously to the Lloyds Banking Group statement released yesterday that implies the Rangers' manager lied about the bank's control of the club. The Evening Times understands Smith was apoplectic at the wording of the bank's response to our exclusive revelations yesterday. They outlined the critical condition of the club, the growing influence of the bank in its affairs and the split that has emerged within the boardroom. advertisement Smith feels he has now been left in an impossible position and conveyed his deep unhappiness to the hierarchy. Indeed, he is now so fed-up with the internal politics and deception at play he could leave as soon as a new owner is found, even if it means leaving before the end of the season or before his contract ends in January. He has also received the unanimous support of the fans after Lloyds statement elicited an angry response across fans' websites and phone-ins. The statement, released last night, included the incendiary phrase: "Given the recent press coverage, we would therefore like to be clear Rangers FC is neither operated nor run by Lloyds Banking Group." Smith, 61, is so disenchanted with life at Ibrox he felt compelled to speak out publicly after the 1-1 draw against Hibernian on Saturday. In a further twist, the Evening Times understands chief executive Martin Bain will not walk away from the club despite growing speculation the bank is keen to remove the man who has steadfastly refused to agree with the swingeing programme of cuts mooted at the last board meeting. Gordon McKie, the chief executive of the Scottish Rugby Union, has been linked as a possible replacement but if Bain is sacked, he will be followed out the door by Smith and Alastair Johnston, the chairman, in protest at the bank's decision. This would effectively leave Donald Muir, the Lloyds-employed turnaround specialist appointed to the board, as the man effectively in charge of the club, which is around �£30m in debt. http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/display.var.2533280.0.0.php
  11. From the Evening Times. It mirrors TannochsideBears thread. Dire Straits!
  12. I got a call this morning from someone who has confirmed to me that the above article written by Darrell King has the true story 100% spot on. He told me who his source was that is quoted and why he was involved in the story. I also hear that Murray is a busted flush and has been holed up in Perthshire for the last 3 weeks unable to run any of his businesses, as the property crash has had disastrous consequences on his portfolio and the bank have had enough. Dave King is close to buying the club, but the haggling from Lloyds is preventing this from taking place. King is wanting the bank to accept 40p in the �£1 for Rangers debts, like the bank are doing to troubled Companies all over the country, but the bank are holding firm for all the debt to be repaid. Over the next week or two, the campaign against Lloyds will start to gain pace to try to force them to accept King's deal. Be ready to close your Lloyds/Bank of scotland accounts and write to them expressing your disgust at their handling of the situation. Bain is staying, and is apparantly fighting really hard for King's people to come through, and will be rewarded with keeping his job. (I dont like that bit, but there you are) Once in, King will go to the fans with an investment plan, perhaps shares, perhaps something else, to get the fans to own more of the club, and have more of a say in the club. If the bank accepts King's plan, it will give the club a debt of around �£12M, and we will have to sell 1 top player in January to get the debt down to �£10M, which will be our new manageable limit going forward. The bank have been seriously threatening to put us into administration, and dont seem to believe that relegation to div 3 and no europe will have much of an effect on ST uptake!! It looks like just playing hardball, but we are no f*cking toy to be bartered around with, or some wee 3rd rate business that nobody would miss if it went to the wall. As always with these rumours and counter-rumours, you are at liberty to believe what you will from the above, but anyone who knows me knows I dont post rumours, and I do know people who know people and hear things, hardly any of which I actually post on messageboards, but this is too serious to ignore. Oh how we laughed at Timmy in the mid-nineties when they were 30 minutes from closure, we are not laughing now.
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