The role of UEFA and the dangerous game being played

[maineflyer 0]

This is turning into farce. We all know songs are sung by crowds as an expression of solidarity but when you think about it, what business is it of UEFA to judge the songs or the singing. What next - marks out of ten for lyrics and melody? A morality version of Eurovision?

 

If public morality has now become the province of football authorities, is it only be judged in terms of the collective voice of crowds. Would Jim Torbet abusing children have led to a ban on Celtic admitting anyone under the age of twelve to watch their games. Or the Catholic church systematically buggering children prevent the participation of catholic coaches or managers throughout Europe? Did the mass murder and ethnic cleansing of Bosnians see UEFA banning the Croatian or Serbian FA's from Euro Championships? Did Franco's systematic brutality of his citizens see Spanish clubs banned while Real Madrid were winning all those European Cups?

 

Is having an owner involved in dubious business deals an afront to UEFA's moral code? Are convicted criminals to be banned from attending football games? Are players convicted of breaking the law to be suspended? Or Ginger haired managers suspended for beating their wife perhaps, where does UEFA stand on wife beating?

 

Surely UEFA is a body to administer the game of football in Europe. Surely we already have governments, legislatures, police and courts to establish codes of behavior and deal with offences against the public interest. Where in the legal framework of any European country does it accommodate UEFA to act as judge and jury on the conduct of it's citizens?

 

UEFA is effectively serving punishment on private companies on the basis that criminal law is being broken on it's premises by individuals who are not employed by it and have no contractual responsibility to it. And UEFA is doing this, not on the evidence of it's own police service interpreting it's own laws, but on the reports of unaccredited and unaccountable individuals and organizations, sometimes with a clear conflict of interest.

 

In this part of the world enormous effort is placed upon ensuring democratic governance. We willingly rush to war in order to assure our democratic rights and award Nobel Prizes to those who foster democracy across the world. The exception appears to be our willingness to stand aside while a footballing authority intercedes in the legal affairs of our citizens and corporate organizations. We demand no democratic credentials of UEFA, there is no accountability required, and no democratic participation by the individuals being judged by it.

 

I have no problem with UEFA judging the conduct of it's constituent clubs and national FA's. I have a huge problem with UEFA stepping outside its footballng perimeter and judging the conduct of private citizens who are not members, employees or owners of those clubs. That, in my estimation, is a matter reserved exclusively to the national and EU courts.

 

If I am to be excluded from attending a football game on the decision of UEFA, where do I seek redress for the constraint of my freedoms? The answer of course is that I don't. I am punished after being judged by a body with no jurisdiction over me and without ever having been convicted of any offence.*

 

This might seem to be a pointless perspective but I think it lies at the heart of the entire madness and is the crack though which personal interest is able to leverage collective behaviour. It's why we go to such enormous lengths to guard our democracies. At least that's how the script is usually written.*

 

The rise of the sporting authorities, their growing wealth and political influence, and their impact on nations and citizens alike is not limited to football either. Perhaps the best example of why someone urgently needs to stand on UEFA's toes is the mind boggling corruption of the Olympic movement. In the history of western society and with the possible exception of the catholic church and FIFA, has there ever been a less accountable organization that wielded more power and influence than the IOC? If this is the template that UEFA is now embracing then it is perhaps no surprise that it has little interest in respecting the rights of people like you and me.

 

We all realize there are indeed issues to be dealt with but every one of us needs to think seriously about the deeper and more insidious game being played by those who are in a position to threaten something altogether more offensive than the songs being sung at football matches.

[Zappa 0]

According to the UEFA Disciplinary Regulations clubs are indeed responsible for the conduct of their supporters. I'm not saying it's right and definitely not saying that we should be punished again for songs, but it IS in the regulations. As a general regulatory matter it's nothing new either; member associations and their clubs have been held responsible for the actions of supporters for many many years even if the rules have been getting tweeked along the way.

 

Article 6 on page 6 and Articles 11 & 11bis on page 9 are the significant ones -

 

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefa/Others/72/95/88/729588_DOWNLOAD.pdf

[Zappa 0]

Btw, it's worth noting that those very same sections in UEFA's Disciplinary Regulations could be used to punish Celtic for anything their supporters sing or display related to the IRA or similar as well as any use of the word 'hun' or other offensive and derogatory terms. The highlighted parts are relevant:-

 

"Article 11 - Other offences

 

1. Disciplinary measures provided for in Articles 14 and 15 of the present regulations may be taken against member associations or clubs if:

 

a) a team, player, official or member is in breach of Article 5 of the present regulations;

b) a team conducts itself improperly, for example if individual disciplinary sanctions have been imposed by the referee on at least five (5) players during the same match. For futsal competitions, an offence occurs when at least three (3) players have received disciplinary sanctions during the same match;

 

2. The same disciplinary measures may be taken against member associations or clubs in case of inappropriate behaviour on the part of their supporters, including:

 

a) the invasion or attempted invasion of the field of play;

b) the throwing of objects;

c) the ignition of fireworks;

d) the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, in particular if it is of a political, offensive or provocative nature;

e) acts of damage;

f) any other lack of order or discipline observed in the stadium area.

 

Article 11bis - Discrimination and similar conduct

 

1. Anyone who insults the human dignity of a person or group of persons, by whatever means, including on grounds of colour, race, religion or ethnic origin, shall incur a suspension for five matches or for a specified period.

2. Any member association or club whose supporters engage in the behaviour described in paragraph 1 shall incur a minimum fine of EUR 20,000.

3. If particular circumstances so require, the disciplinary body may impose additional sanctions on the member association or club responsible, such as the playing of one or more matches behind closed doors, a stadium closure, awarding of a match by default, deduction of points or disqualification from the competition.

4. Any form of extremist ideological propaganda is banned before, during and after matches. The sanctions laid down in paragraphs 1 to 3 above apply."

[Guest Dutchy]

I'm not worried about UEFA's regulations, it's FARE that troubles me. I read this morning that UEFA have a 'contract' with this group, hence why they listen to what the have to say.

 

Maybe some bugger within UEFA should have applied their own rules to this bunch being employed in the first place?

[maineflyer 0]

According to the UEFA Disciplinary Regulations clubs are indeed responsible for the conduct of their supporters. I'm not saying it's right and definitely not saying that we should be punished again for songs, but it IS in the regulations. As a general regulatory matter it's nothing new either; member associations and their clubs have been held responsible for the actions of supporters for many many years even if the rules have been getting tweeked along the way.

 

Article 6 on page 6 and Articles 11 & 11bis on page 9 are the significant ones -

 

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefa/Others/72/95/88/729588_DOWNLOAD.pdf

 

In Article 6 and Article 11 in the Maineflyer Regulations it entitles me to shoot anyone wearing green and white hoops who walks up my driveway. It doesn't necessarily mean it's right or lawful.

 

Edit - OK, it doesn't mean it's lawful.

[Zappa 0]

UEFA have been cracking down on racism, discrimination and anything related for quite some time MF and a good number of European clubs have been punished for it, not just us.

 

Personally, I think they should just be focussing on racism against black players, coloured players etc, but they've clearly been broadening their interest in these matters for a good number of years. Clubs like Zenit deserve to be punished for racism and they have been. A Zenit fan rep (think he was the leader of a 4 or 5 thousand strong group of ST holders) is quoted as saying 'no black players, no problem' and that's the type of backward attitude that's completely unnacceptable in today's multi-cultural society, so I'm all for UEFA cracking down on that.

 

The problem we have is that we've been roped into the whole discrimination campaign that UEFA are running because of repeated complaints being sent to UEFA by people who want to destroy us. We all know that, but it's now at a stage where it's all about what can be done about it and that unfortunately includes damage limitation.

 

I'm sorry to say this because I probably agree with over 90% of what you say in general, but I didn't agree with you and other Bears who were campaigning online for TBB to be sung loud and proud after we had been told not to sing it. Not having a go or pointing a finger of blame here, but I didn't agree with that and I still don't.

[Zappa 0]

Traynor on Sportsound answering a caller and saying that we don't have a problem with racism in Scotland. Obviously forgetting bananas thrown at Mark Walters and 20 years on from that, a banana thrown at Jean-Claude Darcheville at celtic park. I've probably missed some other events - oh! Stop the bus! What about racist abuse towards Diouf?? mmmmmmmmmmmm

[maineflyer 0]

I'm sorry to say this because I probably agree with over 90% of what you say in general, but I didn't agree with you and other Bears who were campaigning online for TBB to be sung loud and proud after we had been told not to sing it. Not having a go or pointing a finger of blame here, but I didn't agree with that and I still don't.

I've absolutely no problem with you taking that view. I couldn't give a monkeys about the actual song, I'm no vocalist and you'd do well even to get me to hum along quietly in the background. My protest has always related to the apathy and apparent disinterest of the modern Rangers fan - and especially the sense of embarrassment I often get from younger fans that seems to infer everything before Murray dinosaur land. Well it wasn't perfect but it wasn't so bad either. It's probably obvious but I'm hugely irritated by the likes of the RST and its many pontificates achieving nothing. It's almost worse that ignorance or apathy when your activists turn out to be fucking useless - well useless if you judge performance by results.

 

Singing the TBB seemed to be the antithesis of the awful RST talking/squabbling shop. That's all.

 

We do need to move on, of course we do. But not out of guilt or embarrassment. We need to get our heads up, be proud of our heritage however it might not sit well with today's pc world, and find our future as a club and as a people defined by our past.

 

We'll never find that future unless we first find some common identity. At the moment we still seem to be on the downslope, denying our old identity with nothing at all to gather around instead. I've read lots of tweets and other forums saying they genuinely want to find a new way forward but there is also a universal view that Mark Dingwall simply cannot be part of it, a measure if it was needed of the surprising depth of resentment that individual has created and probably a hint of how harmful his smothering of the RST has been. It won't suit everyone to believe one person could be both the barrier and the gate to progress but that's what I'm reading.

 

And there's no point wanting change without being prepared to address whatever is stopping it - the trouble is that Dingwall's removal has to be voluntary, no one can actually make it happen unless he agrees. For that reason I'm currently doubtful the current mess can be improved.

[Zappa 0]

The RST board is democratically voted by it's members MF. If it isn't, then it isn't a Trust. There IS a loophole though... only a certain number of positions are voted on.

 

I've said before that the RST needs to open it's doors to fans and the best way to do that is to offer free membership.

[pete 2,499]

I am going to be honest about this at times when I see these drunken idiots slobbering out the party songs and bile like" Huwwo Huwwo we ur ze billy :sleep::sleep:Boyz. He Edu your a fucken wanker, Follow Follow we will follow Rangers. Fuck you Davis you are a wee prick." I am sure you have all seen it before, I get truly embarrassed at being a Rangers supporter. I have seen two things over the last few weeks where i was totally jealous of as a football supporter. The first was the Leeds utd fans singing before the start of the game against NF. The whole stadium joined in in a sort club anthem, it totally gave me goose pimples. The second was on Thursday evening when FC Twente lost 8-2 to Villareal on aggregate and 95% of the stadium stayed to sing their appreciation of there teams run in Europe. These people sing songs about the love of their club and not about the hate of other clubs or religions.

I know some may say why don't you support them then but I am and always will be a Rangers supporter and it is my support that I want to look up to with pride and get goose pimples from the roof being lifted off, in the support of our team. Why can't we just support our team?