Keevins in Sunday Mail

[andy steel 0]

The GB sing about the IRA - The UB's sing about the UVF/YCV

The GB require political indoctrination before you can join - The UB's sing about the UVF/YCV

The GB have brought in numerous IRA referencing banners into Parkhead - The UB's sing about the UVF/YCV

The GB bring a banner with a convicted IRA terrorist's face on it - The UB's sing about the UVF/YCV

The GB refuse to have a minutes's silence around Armistice Sunday and refer to the poppy as "bloo stained" (sic) - The UB's sing about the UVF/YCV

The GB smash up loads of seats at Fir Park - The UB's sing about the UVF/YCV

 

Hmmm. I'm finding it hard to see how they are as bad as each other which was what my point was in post 14. I'm not sure why you are only focusing on one aspect when there's so much more to the Green Brigade than singing.

 

Your point? It's not about the point you were making, it's about the point Chibmark was making.

 

You replied to Chibmark's post saying 'that's not the point'. I replied to yours saying that the point was about singing about terrorists and it sucks. Since he clicked both 'agree' and 'thank' I took that to suggest that, yes, that was the point he was making. Now, you may be right and Chibmark himself failed to understand the point he was making...I think that a bit far fetched.

[andy steel 0]

And to andy steel apparently. Though he's absolutely getting his pants pulled down in this argument.

 

Curious. I wasn't even aware I was having an argument.

[Bluedell 5,329]

Your point? It's not about the point you were making, it's about the point Chibmark was making.

 

You replied to Chibmark's post saying 'that's not the point'. I replied to yours saying that the point was about singing about terrorists and it sucks. Since he clicked both 'agree' and 'thank' I took that to suggest that, yes, that was the point he was making. Now, you may be right and Chibmark himself failed to understand the point he was making...I think that a bit far fetched.

 

Chibmark didn't mention singing specifically or that the UB make reference to terrorists in the post that I quoted. That was you later on.

 

Edit - maybe don't bother replying to this Andy as it's turning into a debating point rather than anything else and these can get boring for everyone else, and we are moving away from the main point of the thread. We have both made our points and we should leave it like that.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Bluedell

[SteveC 150]

As far as I know the Union Bears and the Blue Order haven't been involved in the type of wanton vandalism seen at Fir Park and Dens Park recently, whereas the Green Brigade have and seem to have have an old school hooligan element.

 

But I have to agree that in terms of songs I can see no discernible difference between one Irish murder group and another. Likewise both the Union Bears and the Green Brigade have made 'political' points through banners and songs, points that aren't reflective of each club's overall support. Until you no longer hear murder gang songs from our support then I'm not sure we can take the moral high ground here.

 

At least one set of said groups is British, who would argue both groups are..................

 

...but in general, there's a point of utter divide here between those who think singing about what? historical warriors/freedom fighters/terrorists/drug overlords/local gangs... whatever term you choose...has any place in supporting a football club in the 21st century - years after Paisley and McGuinness have laughed together - is OK (if not de riguer) and those who are baffled by it.

 

It's a deeper divide than we acknowledge as it is also personal. My father took me everywhere to see Rangers from child until iI went with my pals. He also taught me to be totally opposed to discrimination/bias and had no time for sectarianism in any form. The result is I straddle this debate uncomfortably. For example, I revelled in belting out the songs I use to sing in my teenage years when I was at Sheffield, it was a pure nostalgia trip. Yet I don't believe any of those songs have anything to do with football watching.

 

Hypocritical? Yes, I am = terribly so. I have never felt I was supporting the team more than when I belted out TBB in defiance or triumph, back in the 70s, even though I intellectually know it is wrong to sing it. Think I'll go to my grave with this problem, I've had it for over 40 years already and am no nearer a solution.

[amms 0]

At least one set of said groups is British, who would argue both groups are..................

 

...but in general, there's a point of utter divide here between those who think singing about what? historical warriors/freedom fighters/terrorists/drug overlords/local gangs... whatever term you choose...has any place in supporting a football club in the 21st century - years after Paisley and McGuinness have laughed together - is OK (if not de riguer) and those who are baffled by it.

 

It's a deeper divide than we acknowledge as it is also personal. My father took me everywhere to see Rangers from child until iI went with my pals. He also taught me to be totally opposed to discrimination/bias and had no time for sectarianism in any form. The result is I straddle this debate uncomfortably. For example, I revelled in belting out the songs I use to sing in my teenage years when I was at Sheffield, it was a pure nostalgia trip. Yet I don't believe any of those songs have anything to do with football watching.

 

Hypocritical? Yes, I am = terribly so. I have never felt I was supporting the team more than when I belted out TBB in defiance or triumph, back in the 70s, even though I intellectually know it is wrong to sing it. Think I'll go to my grave with this problem, I've had it for over 40 years already and am no nearer a solution.

 

I doubt there's a Rangers fan alive who hasn't belted out one of those songs at one time, I certainly did.

 

But the point here isn't whether we should or shouldn't sing them it's that the Union bears, by singing them, invite comparison to the Green Brigade.

[Waltersgotstyle 297]

I doubt there's a Rangers fan alive who hasn't belted out one of those songs at one time, I certainly did.

 

But the point here isn't whether we should or shouldn't sing them it's that the Union bears, by singing them, invite comparison to the Green Brigade.

 

We have our fair share of idiots too.

[calscot 0]

I think I sang a couple for a short while when I was about 11 but then realised what they meant and decided it was wrong. I didn't need any parents telling me this, I just worked it out for myself. I had a Rangers LP of songs, and none of them had any of the religious stuff in it.

 

The whole thing is utterly oxymoronic as if you're religious then you're clueless about your own religion and you're probably going to hell, and if your not, then you must be just senseless and wasting a large part of your one and only life on something you're not even interested in - and ironically hurting the club you follow by doing so.

 

But I know why people do it, it's because they think they are big and hard when they do - and that's the sad aspect of it. It's all about being loud, offensive, abusive and threatening in a country that brought enlightenment to the world.

[andy steel 0]

There is a little more to it than that, Cal - for a number of people, the sense of belonging they get from being in amongst a big crowd (either us or them) gives them a sense of security and identity they have never achieved anywhere else. There's a number of studies which have shown that of the most committed (vocally) to the Old Firm, a huge majority of them have no active religious life at all. But they love the feeling of belonging somewhere, and since some sections of our and their fan base endorse this kind of thing that's what gets carried forward, generation after generation.

 

Much to do with dysfunctionality of life at the less affluent end of Glasgow and Scottish life. I wish I could link the studies but I suppose they'll be online somewhere.

 

It's the reason why I've banged on for a decade about how if you wear a Rangers scarf and you represent the club, therefore act accordingly. It's about trying to create a new, less obnoxious identity for these people to buy into, which gives them the same sense of belonging but removes any need to include utterly irrelevant socio-religious pish. But to be honest think it's like banging your head against a brick wall because any such move immediately brings down a host of people pointing fingers and crying 'sell-out!'

 

Fair enough some may be acting hard, but I think for others it gives them some kind of meaning to what they feel to be meaningless lives.

[amms 0]

Interesting post Andy.

I was reading at the weekend that the age demographics in match attendance has changed in the last 20 years. It's got considerably older now with far fewer younger supporters attending matches now compared to the 70s and 80s. This has apparently made crowds quieter but quicker to criticise their team. I'd always put the singing of certain songs down to the folly of youth, perhaps not.

[RyanGers193 0]

To be fair to Hugh, the GB and UB are both differing sides of the same coin and for every unsavoury incident inflicted on Celtic by the grotesque Green Brigade, their polar opposites in the Union Bears will try and outdo them with equally charmless Orange symbolism or their own pyrotechnic omnishambles. Anyone who doubts this only had to attend last seasons Glasgow Cup final where the game was held up umpteen times as countless flares were thrown onto the field by supposed 'Gers fans as the Rangers keeper ducked for cover, then as the game finished, it became blatantly obvious that the Celtic end had destroyed scores of seats.

 

Fucking hell. A thread about the scum fans acting like scum and one of our fans uses it to have a go at our fans.

 

'charmless orange symbolism'. Pathetic.

 

Not the biggest UB fan but they're nothing like TGB.