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[Frankie 8,145]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that there is a Rangers fan alive who doesn't know or think that f*****n refers to Catholics? And please don't give me any nonsense about it meaning some obscure group of 19th century Irish American activists, who nobody had heard of until recently.

 

Yes, I'd fancy that plenty of of our younger fans have no idea what fen!an means. And I'd certainly suggest not everyone thinks it automatically means catholic either.

 

'Context' applies if Professor Higgenbottom-Smythe is giving a lecture at Edinburgh University on the rise of 9th Century Irish nationalism. In this context the word F****n is pretty central to the day's events. When we are talking about football, context does not apply "in such situations", because there are no "such situations" - when you're wearing a Rangers scarf and talking about f******s, it's bigotry, pure and simple.

 

Completely disagree for the reasons above. Context is central to the PF when prosecuting. See Devlin v Strathclyde Police (2008).

 

Sectarianism has no chance of ending as long as children are divided into separate schools at the age of 5 and grow up with a mentality of division. The promotion and fostering of sectarianism has little or nothing to do with us or Rangers FC. That aside, the issue is very, very simple: if you use derogatory, racist or discriminatory terms about any particular group, that's illegal and those songs are banned. There is no confusion. TBB =banned; The Sash / Derry's Walls = no problem.

 

TBB = banned. Super Rangers = not banned.

TBB = banned. Go home ya huns = not banned.

RoH at football = banned. RoH in charts = not banned.

 

This equals confusion and fosters cynicism. No idea why you're bringing schools into this debate.

 

 

If you were to sing TBB tomorrow, you'd be singing about Catholics. You wouldn't be able to kid yourself on that it had any other meaning and you sure as hell wouldn't be kidding anyone else on either.

 

Whenever I sung TBB, I didn't really pay much attention to the fen!an part. I was younger and didn't, despite being reasonably well educated, recognise the word as being particularly offensive. I didn't sing the song because I was a bigot but to a) create noise and b) annoy other fans. Now I'm aware of the overall context of the word, I don't sing the song but I reserve the right to be puzzled at the banning of it when we examine the broader picture. I disagree completely that everyone using that word is anti-catholic - especially those fans from NI who will be much more aware of it's literal meaning than guys like me from East Scotland.

 

 

You're talking about two legal jurisdictions here, so in that respect, context is relevant. In Scotland, it's a no-no. In rUK, you can sing about terrorists all you want, no problem. (unless of course, it's Islamic "terrorists", when a whole new set of laws and rules apply. Some of them even on the statute books.) But again, the motivation is of no relevance whatsoever. Bob Geldof and the Dalai Lama could sing it in a duet atop the steeple of Greyfriars Kirk and they'd still get lifted for doing so.

 

The Offensive Behavior Act extends to outwith Scotland.

 

Despite this, a song which may get you arrested if you sing it at the football, appeared in the UK and Scottish charts and no action was taken. Context and motivation are everything.

 

Ask Neil Lennon. Ask Leigh Griffiths. Ask Donald Findlay. Ask Bob Malcolm. Ask William Walls. Ask Michael Devlin. Ask the dozens of others who have and have not been prosecuted by laws that seem as badly implemented as they were first thought out.

[calscot 0]

I've got to say I've never had a problem with any Celtic fans being Catholics but do have a problem with those that support the IRA, and for me, I've always believed the F word means supporter of the IRA, I can't really work out the Catholic interpretation except at a stretch. Of course anyone can misinterpret and misuse a word and if enough do it, the perceived meaning can change.

 

As for GSTQ, there are only two official verses, and those don't contain the "crush" part. I'm happy enough to leave those other verses as a historical curiosity and fodder for amusing banter by the Big Yin.

 

You would have to take a demented twist on FOS of epic Timmy proportions to find it anti-English.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Yes, I'd fancy that plenty of of our younger fans have no idea what fen!an means. And I'd certainly suggest not everyone thinks it automatically means catholic either.

 

Sorry mate, you're describing a place I've never been to in a language I don't understand. The above bears no relationship to the Ibrox I go to or teh supporters I know.

 

Completely disagree for the reasons above. Context is central to the PF when prosecuting. See Devlin v Strathclyde Police (2008).

 

TBB = banned. Super Rangers = not banned.

TBB = banned. Go home ya huns = not banned.

RoH at football = banned. RoH in charts = not banned.

 

This equals confusion and fosters cynicism. No idea why you're bringing schools into this debate.

 

It is the application of the law which is confused, not the law itself

 

 

Whenever I sung TBB, I didn't really pay much attention to the fen!an part. I was younger and didn't, despite being reasonably well educated, recognise the word as being particularly offensive. I didn't sing the song because I was a bigot but to a) create noise and b) annoy other fans. Now I'm aware of the overall context of the word, I don't sing the song but I reserve the right to be puzzled at the banning of it when we examine the broader picture. I disagree completely that everyone using that word is anti-catholic - especially those fans from NI who will be much more aware of it's literal meaning than guys like me from East Scotland.

 

You kinda make my case for me here. When you and I were young we sang the song. Now that we know what it means, we don't sing it. We know what it means because we learned what it means as we grew up - as did every other Rangers fan. Anyone who still sings it, knowing what it means opens themselves to accusations of bigotry.

 

 

 

 

The Offensive Behavior Act extends to outwith Scotland.

 

Despite this, a song which may get you arrested if you sing it at the football, appeared in the UK and Scottish charts and no action was taken. Context and motivation are everything.

 

 

It extends only to football matches at which one of the teams is from Scotland. It does not extend to the Abbey Road recording studios.

[Frankie 8,145]

Sorry mate, you're describing a place I've never been to in a language I don't understand. The above bears no relationship to the Ibrox I go to or teh supporters I know.

 

 

 

It is the application of the law which is confused, not the law itself

 

 

 

 

You kinda make my case for me here. When you and I were young we sang the song. Now that we know what it means, we don't sing it. We know what it means because we learned what it means as we grew up - as did every other Rangers fan. Anyone who still sings it, knowing what it means opens themselves to accusations of bigotry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It extends only to football matches at which one of the teams is from Scotland. It does not extend to the Abbey Road recording studios.

 

1. A cursory examination of this site shows learned people disagree with your interpretation. You also go onto admit you sung the song - through ignorance - when younger. That suggests not everyone is aware (or disagrees) that fen!an means catholic. For me, and many others, it simply means Celtic fan - specifically those Celtic fans which enjoy virulent republicanism - neither of whom are necessarily catholic. I think that's an understandable and fair point of view. Does that make me a bigot? Absolutely not...!

 

2. The whole debate is flawed which lends confusion. From the law itself, to the interpretation to the application - confusion is prevalent. When the law can make one song banned and ignore another despite almost identical meanings and words within it, that means the law is an ass.

 

3. You seem to have backtracked somewhat. Now, someone singing it leaves themselves open to being called a bigot rather than immediately being one. I'd agree with that - it is dangerous to sing this song which is why I don't, not because I agree fen!an automatically means catholic. It doesn't. For some - indeed many - it will but, for others, it's much more simple and, paradoxically, much more complicated.

 

4. I suggest Section 10 of the legislation covers football matches and threatening communications. Is the release of a football song with specific reference to this law such a communication? Is is just offensive behaviour related to football? Or is it covered by existing terrorism laws? Well, I'm not a lawyer so I don't know. However, it confuses me that a football fan can be arrested for singing it but a music group cannot. Would the same happen with TBB? Why the inconsistency? You're merely substantiating my point and I've provided a whole host of examples where that inconsistency exists.