Polarised Bears

[26th of foot 5,825]

Swap Rangers/unionists with nationalists in that article and it would read the same for how many unionists are feeling right now because of the behaviour from Yes campaigners.

 

On Saturday, I listened to Cosgrove lionise Dundee United. They are the Yes club from Yes City. Their Chairman, Stephen Thompson came out last Monday, supporting a Yes vote and urging club supporters to follow his lead. In excess of 40% of Dundonians voted No, many of those will be United fans, how do they feel? I suspect they will quietly continue to follow their team.

 

Let's take this rationale to it's conclusion. Tommy Sheridan is in this morning's Herald, urging everyone to join the SNP. Thus, a Trot' socialist is succumbing to the warm waters of nationalism. The Sunday Post has submitted a FOI request reference the First Minister's meetings with Rupert Murdoch. Apparently, Eck has met Rupert on more occasions than all other party leaders put together. So, Tommy wants everyone to join the party led by the guy desperate to solicit the support of an Australian octogenarian that put Tommy in the tin pail. What team should Tommy support?

[Juancornetto 1]

You seem to be lumping stuff like the respectful singing of GSTQ at games with the neds running around George Square. Are we really allowing neds to dictate what we are and what we are not?

 

Are you suggesting that everyone who does fall into your notions is unreasonable?

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

Do you mean that we should not take Union Jacks to the game? You're proposing that we have no national flags (UJs or saltires) on our strips or in the stands? We take down the picture of Queen from the dressing room? We stop the Loving Cup ceremony?

 

What you are proposing is likely to cause bigger splits in the support than anything we've seen up until now, and I don't see that much of what you seen to be having a go at is "intolerance, negative affiliations and polarizing attitudes". Showing support for the no vote is not intolerant or negative, for example.

 

I'm certainly not in favour of the club giving up its links.

 

Firstly, I said Loyalist symbolism which in my mind is distinct from Unionism. I'm certainly not advocating removal of Union flags etc because in itself there is nothing wrong with being a proud British club. I still believe Rangers to be the quintessential British club in the same way Jaguar is a quintessential British car maker and Harrod's to be a quintessentially British store. You get the picture.

 

Secondly, support for the No vote is a political choice. It has absolutely nothing to do with Rangers and those who engaged in telling people like me where they could stick their view created division. Lastly, I've yet to be convinced of any link between Rangers Football Club itself and the political institutions that people keep telling me are part of it's history. The fans have imposed those links, whether that be Northern Irish supporters using Rangers as the anti-thesis to their enemies use of Celtic in the same way.

[Juancornetto 1]

People like myself? Fancy explaining yourself on that one? Please bear in mind that you will also be denigrating the characters of the many thousands of Rangers men who have held similar views over the years.

 

The Rangers support has always had a huge following from the people of Ulster, whether it was from those still living there, or the many who moved to Scotland for work, especially in engineering and shipbuilding in the areas around Ibrox. Rangers were 'chosen' to be the Protestant team to rival the emergence of the RC team operating out of the East.

 

Many of those who arrived were Orangemen and links were formed between the support and the club, especially under the tenure of Sir John Ure Primrose, a man who was very much a prominent and outspoken Unionist when the Home Rule debate was raging.

 

There was certainly a direct link between the club and the Orange Order from at least the 1950s until 1997 when Sir David Murray put an end to the annual church service being held in the stadium. This lead to the Order relinquishing long-held shares that it had in the club.

 

I assume from your posts that you either are an active Orangemen or at least have sympathy for their "cause". That being the case I'm more than happy to denigrate your character because quite simply it is a stain on the club and support. It may be an old stain and have been tolerated far more in bygone days of yore but the harsh reality is that it is irrelevant to the football club and is driving people like me away and as I mentioned it is likely to deter a whole new generation of supporters from our club. An organisation which holds a victory in a religious battle 324 years ago as it's central theme should be mocked not respected.

[Blue Moon 1,105]

I also voted "No" and never wavered in my belief that it was the right thing for my country and would agree that there was a great deal of animosity from the extremists on both sides and I expressed my disgust at it all.

 

I am politically on the Left which has brought me into conflict with my fellow bears over the years but I refused to compromise what I believed in and refused to change my beliefs to "fit in". The Rangers family is a broad church.

 

I don't suggest that we forget our heritage but the peaceful, moderate and tolerant amongst us should be accepting of others' beliefs, just like we would with our friends and workmates. No-one should be harassed at a football match for their political or religious beliefs.

 

We are in the aftermath of a momentous political drama and I would urge the OP to allow the dust to settle. There is room for all shades of opinion at Ibrox. I would ignore the ignorant online people as I wouldn't give them the time of day in my own life. The only thing I am intolerant of is intolerance itself.

[Rangersitis 0]

I assume from your posts that you either are an active Orangemen or at least have sympathy for their "cause". That being the case I'm more than happy to denigrate your character because quite simply it is a stain on the club and support. It may be an old stain and have been tolerated far more in bygone days of yore but the harsh reality is that it is irrelevant to the football club and is driving people like me away and as I mentioned it is likely to deter a whole new generation of supporters from our club. An organisation which holds a victory in a religious battle 324 years ago as it's central theme should be mocked not respected.

 

Strongly held views, and you have a legitimate right to hold them. I wouldn't attempt to drive you away from your club for taking that stance, but I do find it very strange that you believe that others should aquiesce in order to pander to your sensitivities.

[jhunter 0]

honestly , dry your eyes.

 

you lost and realistically had no chance of winning.

 

Are you honestly telling me that the singing of stick your independence and waving of Union flags at Ibrox is a surprise to you?

 

The support is divided right now for all sorts of reasons this must rank as the least noteworthy.

[Zappa 0]

Seriously? Neds with Gers tops isn't great, but I'm not allowing them to dictate how I look on our club. They may not even go to games.

 

The vast majority of idiots who stoat about the streets wearing football shirts, drinking and causing trouble in Scotland don't actually go to the games, but unfortunately some of the incidents over the weekend do indeed appear to have involved (and in some cases possibly even been instigated by) groups of match going supporters.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I didn’t think it was possible for the Rangers support to be more fractured and lacking consensus than we were in the first half of this year but rather depressingly we’ve managed it.

 

In the maelstrom of a referendum on Scottish Independence the boardroom turmoil that has dominated the forums, social media and old fashioned conversations took a back seat to Loyalism, Unionism and the bogey man topic of Nationalism. Such is the ineptitude of our board, they missed the opportunity to bury some negative news in amongst the fog of the ideological war that raged throughout the month of September but I digress.

 

Being a pro-Independence Rangers supporter these last few months has been a real challenge. I’ve been confronted by many fellow fans on social media and called everything from a “timpathiser”, (whatever that is) to a Nazi and Quisling. One particularly poorly adjusted and misinformed fellow told me I was a “traitor to Rangers Loyalist Unionist roots…”

 

The idea that a Rangers supporter could support Independence just would not compute for many and my follower count on Twitter tumbled dramatically, I won’t lose any sleep over that however I must admit to now facing somewhat of a crossroads.

 

Do I plod on attending matches listening to chants about where people like me can “stick your Independence” and the Loyalist songbook which was given an airing in George Square on Friday night amidst scenes of thuggery and hatred? Do I carry on turning a blind eye to the continual linking of Rangers Football Club to Loyalism and The Orange Order just as I have done for many years? The thought of turning my back on the club I’ve supported since I was five years old and which has provided myself and my (now deceased) Father so many happy memories makes me physically ill. The thought of a future devoid of one of the precious few constants in my life so far is unthinkable and so that is not a road I’m willing to go down just yet. So what are my options?

 

I could become the archetypal armchair fan and refrain from discussing football matters on social media but we are in an age where it’s almost impossible to avoid. I could fool myself into thinking that it’s not so bad and the majority of my fellow fans are reasonable, open minded individuals but I’m not capable of cognitive dissonance on that scale. It seems that the core of our support are labouring under the misconceptions that being a “real” Rangers man means that you must also be many other things.

 

I’ll use this juncture to clarify what I mean by “core of our support”. There are probably thousands of Rangers supporters (I don’t like term “fan”) who are feeling similarly disillusioned at the moment and those are probably a large percentage of the several thousand fans who’ve been missing for the last few home games joined by those who are boycotting, suffering from boardroom related malaise or simply disillusioned with how we are playing. What’s left are a core (match attending group) and of those I’d estimate that 75% fall into the category as described previously in this article. There’s also a large group of fans who, for one reason or another don’t regularly attend matches and again I’d estimate that a large percentage of those are politically and ideologically aligned with their brethren sitting in the stands. I’m conscious that I’m in danger of pigeon holing large swathes of people here and would only offer the fact that this is how I see things in basic terms. I’m sure there are reasonable folks in amongst the core who do not fall into any of my hastily preconceived notions and that I do not think the situation has reached the point of no return just yet and this leads me to the only other option I feel I have left.

 

I’d urge everyone who considers themselves to be a Rangers supporter to distance the club from toxic and divisive affiliations. To seriously consider for a moment that we are in real danger of losing thousands of people like me who feel marginalised by their fellow bears and more importantly that we are in danger of losing the next generation of season ticket holder who have shown throughout the referendum run up and beyond, that they are increasingly well informed and turned off by Northern Irish politics, by far right-wing rhetoric and the kind of vulgar displays of aggression that we’ve seen both online and in the streets of Glasgow from both Unionists and Nationalist factions. Next time you’re attending an Orange parade maybe leave the Rangers merchandise at home, remove the Loyalist symbolism from Rangers flags and banners, try not to marginalise your fellow supporters who don’t care about that kind of stuff really, that’s all. Is that too much to ask?

 

For some, what I’ve asked is probably tantamount to singing rebel songs in a tri-colour but to me it’s just common decency, something that has been eroding away for many years and something that the gallant pioneers probably had in abundance. Try to be a bit more like a Moses McNeil or a Tom Vallance and live the values which built the very thing that we all hold so dear. If we want a positive future for our club we all have to sow the seeds of that starting from now after all, we share much more in common than we do which divides us. I’ll remain a supporter and will try to live by my own code, respecting others right to support the club any way they choose but speaking out against intolerance, negative affiliations and polarizing attitudes. Let’s see if we can build a stronger and more together support from the rubble.

 

The alternative I’m afraid would be a very dark period in Rangers history. It’s only a matter of time before we will be back attempting to compete with Celtic. It may be only a matter of time before we see major boardroom change. Do we really want to be facing these challenges with a support that can’t agree on what colour the sky is? The answer is obvious to me.

 

 

That is a fantastic post mate. Had I been able, I would have written the same thing word for word.

 

I take my hat off to you for being able to write such a reasoned and rational post after the events of last week. Me? I'm staying off the forum for the time being as I would almost certainly get banned for life if I were to give my thoughts on the subjects you have addressed so elequantly and maturely.

 

A word of caution though; don't argue with the idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[Hildy 0]

There is an element of the Rangers support which struggles to articulate itself in song without mentioning Bobby Sands. There is another element - it could even be the same one - which is vehemently behind the Union but in such an uncouth way that it makes it seem like a narrow place - a place not to be.

 

Like it or not, just as the Celtic support lives with a sinister hardcore element in its ranks, so do we, but this is not unique.

 

Within the Scottish nationalist camp there is enough anti-English bigotry to refloat the Titanic, but decent people have still been attracted to the concept and they often delude themselves that they are part of something fresh and hopeful when they are actually part of a pillar of dark-hearted intolerance.

 

Rangers and Celtic still have to evolve and change some of their ways, but with enough good influences to the fore, it can be done. Within Scottish nationalism, though, I'm not so optimistic.

 

Sectarianism is evil - we keep hearing - but nationalism is the ultimate in sectarianism. It is the capital of intolerance and narrow-mindedness - the polar opposite of freedom and inclusivity.

[Zappa 0]

A very biased article from the Herald:

 

George Square Trouble: The night our readers became reporters

By Neil MacKay

Sunday 21 September 2014

 

You are the reporters, Sunday Herald readers. Throughout the weekend, your tweets, retweets, Facebook posts, YouTube videos and emails were invaluable to us trying to piece together what was happening throughout Glasgow as loyalist trouble flared in George Square.

 

 

We had three reporting staff in the square, along with two photographers. After we began posting live images of loyalists giving Nazi salutes and taunting and jeering a much smaller and more peaceful group of Yes supporters, you more or less took over. You sent our images around the country, and you emailed our news desk and reporters with information on where loyalist gangs were moving in the city and what they were doing.

 

You sent us images and footage of them fighting, terrorising ordinary people and spreading disorder in a city which until Friday night had been a carnival of fun and hope, not a carnival of hate.

 

Where throughout the week students, office staff on their lunch breaks, and families had sung Caledonia and Labi Siffri's Something Inside So Strong in George Square, by Friday night the songs had become chants - including "You had your chance and you f***** it up" - screamed with menace and hate, and interposed with singing of Rule Britannia. The heart of Glasgow had gone from Woodstock to Belfast in the space of just one day.

 

And you told us what you thought of this. This was the dark face of Unionism, you said again and again in messages on social media. This was Scotland's shame. This disgusted and repelled you. You - the 45% - responded to our requests for information by liaising with each other online and getting the information to us when you could.

 

And then you decided to act not just as reporters but as investigative reporters. We had heard that the loyalist violence was being co-ordinated online by a hardline group with connections to Northern Ireland. So, we used social media to ask you to help us find out if this was true - there was too much chatter and activity online for any one news desk to check every lead - and you helped us.

 

The entire loyalist demonstration had indeed been orchestrated online, it turned out. You sent us the online poster headed "Scotland Said No" asking for demonstrators to come to the city centre at 6pm. The poster was circulated widely by Britain First, the far-right party set up by ex-BNP members, which has a strong following in Northern Ireland and the west of Scotland.

 

Then you sent us Facebook postings from ordinary Rangers fans, horrified at what their fellow fans were planning. One read: "I am a Rangers supporter. The Rangers pages have been drumming up support to riot at George Square all day. It's disgusting. I am ashamed

 

of them."

 

Then you sent us the social media exchanges of various loyalists you had been monitoring online. One read: "Glasgow riots were crazy, absolutely brilliant buzz. Rule Britannia!"

 

Others talked of going out "slashing c**ts" and wanting "to go to George Square and stab a couple of pencilcases" (slang for students). Another read: "I stabbed a c**t n I liked it".

 

One post from a Rangers supporters' club called on members to gather at "17.00 on the street behind the Louden [bar] and the Bristol Bar on Duke Street". It went on to give a "map route … to all cars", and instructed followers to go to "George Sq for a party".

 

You then identified to us a group of Rangers football fans called the "Vanguard Bears" as being the organisation most involved in the "aggro", as people dubbed the violence online. By Saturday morning, multiple sources were confirming that the Vanguard Bears were the main instigators.

 

Last year, Police Scotland said it had received complaints of a "death list" posted online by the Vanguard Bears of individuals its sees as being opposed to the club.

 

The Vanguard Bears, which has close links with loyalist groups in Belfast, posted an image showing journalists, politicians and people involved in football, including the face of late QC Paul McBride - a prominent Celtic supporter and friend of Neil Lennon.

 

The Progressive Unionist Party - a Northern Ireland political party affiliated with the loyalist paramilitary group the Ulster Volunteer Force - also met with the Vanguard Bears supporters group last year to discuss opposition to the independence referendum.

 

On Thursday, the day of the referendum, the Bears group posted an image of Britannia alongside images of Alex Salmond's head on a spike and the severed head of Nicola Sturgeon. Yesterday it posted a statement online reading: "Our voice is on the rise, we must by actions, not words or political soundbites, ensure our Union is defended."

 

As Friday night wore on into the early hours of Saturday, you, our readers, were even able to keep our reporting staff out on the streets informed about events at our offices. Two men started a fire by the generator which powers the offices of Sunday Herald, The Herald and the Evening Times. Soon you were tweeting images of the fire and asking if we were all OK. We were - though we were out of action until early yesterday afternoon because of the power outage caused by the fire. Police are now investigating.

 

You also retweeted the numerous threats and vile verbal attacks made to our members of staff in order to name and shame the loyalists trolling them online. Your support was much appreciated. On you went, overnight and into yesterday, thousands and thousands of tip-offs, leads, pictures, videos, screen grabs and support. You became an integral part of the newspaper.

 

During the independence campaign, we tried our very hardest to give you the voice in the media you wanted and no-one else was giving you, and you repaid us over the weekend by becoming our eyes and ears - and joining in and becoming a part of the voice of the Sunday Herald. And for that, we thank you from the very bottom of our hearts.

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/george-square-trouble-the-night-our-readers-became-reporters.1411314286

Edited September 22, 2014 by Zappa