Do Rangers, Celtic and Scotland have a problem with sectarian abuse?

[bmck 117]

“Does Scotland have a problem with sectarian abuse?” seems like a very easy question to answer in today’s social climate. I’m sceptical when issues about the whole of a society can be answered simply. It tends to make me think that something quite fundamental’s been missed somewhere. This article follows the tendency in philosophy since the 1920’s to try and unravel the language used to describe big issues. Language can trip us up, and if what we’re saying cant be said ordinarily and clearly, then nothings really being said at all.

 

I suggest that we’ve been fed a language – fed by the government, the media, and, indeed ourselves – to discuss sectarianism. It is language that is reactionary, and sensational, and in being both distorts the truer picture of the issue. We don’t need to look back too far in history to see this kind of manipulation in action, its not some grand conspiracy theory, it just seems to be the way history works. When old Adolf was planning on jaunting across the world generally being a bastard he realised that he first had to convince or appease the German people. He created a language to discuss the war – it was very simple, it just involved setting up Germany’s surrounding countries as enemies based on his dodgy, but highly motivational, philosophy. Then he forced people in to one of two positions – you are either a German, or a subversive. Convincing the German people their very identity was under threat, not to go to war with those around them was unpatriotic – and so everyone discussed the issue of invading Poland in these terms they’d been given.

 

A nice positive term like ‘democrat’ nowadays was, back in the time of the French Revolution, the opposite of a ‘patriot’ – those who believed in democracy then were unable to be patriots, according to the language.

 

So, given we’ve got historical precedent for this kind of things we should at least think its safe to discard all the meanings we’ve been given for terms like ‘abuse’, ‘sectarianism’, ‘pride over prejudice’ etc and assume we can come to a common sense, plain understanding of the issue without them.

 

So, without immediately falling down at the sound of the question, lets ask ourselves clearly “What is sectarian abuse?”. Sectarian’s easy – it just means being driven by a sect, and a belief in the superiority of your doctrine over others. I won’t enter, for the moment, whether the ‘abuse’ at an OF game is best described as sectarian at all. ‘Abuse’ is a bit more subtle – it can mean physical, or mental, or emotional, and what is considered abuse by some, may not be considered by others. It’s not a fixed concept; to understand it you need to look at the situation in which it is used. To show what I mean, here’s some examples:

 

“Get the fuck out of my country you black bastard” is an example of verbal racist abuse.

“Your maw gets shagged off of everyone” is an example of emotional, or psychological, abuse.

 

Which one is the worse abuse? Without looking at the context we can’t know – racism has been historically a worse problem, arguably, because it has very often been accompanied with social oppression and violence – two very important terms when discussing how big a problem is in a country.

 

But what if we gave the examples above a little more context?

 

The black kid turns round and says “Get tae fuck ya backwards cunt”, and his friends laugh, disgusted that there were still racist people like that.

 

Whereas the kid who’s maw had been slagged (sic) got this piled onto him every day for years, built resentment for his mother, left when he was 16 and never spoke to her again.

 

Even in these contrived examples it’s not hard to see that unless we take a look at the bigger picture we can’t work out how bad abuse is.

 

So how bad is sectarian abuse? Well, in its current form, as discussed in the newspapers, it involves groups of people chanting provocatively at other groups of people who are chanting back. No genuine protestant or catholic leaves feeling their religion has been violated so badly as to question it, they are not denied a job or are killed. That is, there is no social repression, and there is no violence.

 

When we look back to the examples above we must be inclined to think its more like the racism example – those who are against bigotry COULD take the approach of the mature black kid who says “Fuck off ya backward cunt”, or the friends that mutter “I cant believe people can still be arsed with that stuff”. To people with a modern sensibility it’s absolutely shocking that people can still be bigotted, but the truth of the matter is that it’s unpleasant, uncouth and dated, but hardly devastating. Ideas naturally die off through time – when the old, crappy, ideas are dying its unpleasant to us who are more enlightened, but it’s just the natural order. Our grand ideas will die this way also.

 

If a passerby reported the racism incident to the police we would tend to think the more mature approach was the boy’s – understanding ignorance for what it is. When someone is abused at school for, I dunno, having glasses, their parents explain to them that its just stupid prejudice, and to be confident enough in themselves not to be worried by what morons think. You tend to think that if everyone adopted a position of piteous condescension towards bigotry it would die a lot sooner than by exposing it sensationally, and forcing everyone into a horribly contrived – “You are either for bigotry, or against it (in the way we – the media, the government - are)”.

 

What about sectarian killings? Are they not symptoms of a sectarian problem in Scotland? The answer, as ever, is yes and no. They are evidence of sectarian violence as much as they are teenage thuggery. The fact that they can be explained in both ways shows that any simple, Nil By Mouth, approach to the problem is just that - simple. When we start to stand back at look at the prevalence of knife crime in Scotland, it may seem, on reflection, that these incidents are often better explained as incidents of that problem, rather than a sectarian one. Sectarian divide being the catalyst in the way that area, or looking at someone the wrong way, is in other instances of knife crime.

 

I myself have been the victim of sectarian abuse. One hot summers day a few mates and I were heading over to the game - we never had tickets and the subways was too full so we decided to go to the pub. Heading back up the stairs I got seperated from them and promptly called a 'wee hun bastard' by a group of guys coming down the stair. By the time I looked up I had been fly kicked in the head, leaving a nice foot print thereupon - I'll stop for a moment, you should laugh, the image is funny - and was promptly given a good kicking on the way past. I was left considerably cut and bruised and had a horrible black eye for work on the Monday. While its certainly true that in some sense I was the victim of sectarian violence, I think a more wholistic description of those people were just morons. They were in a group, they attacked an individual, they were much bigger and a good deal older. This kind of thing has been happening since the dawn of time - is it pleasant? No, its a disgrace, but thinking that ridding the world of sectarianism would stop this kind of violence is just hopelessly naive. Its simply a bigger problem to do with human nature, and I'm quite sure as their night progressed and drunkenness ensued someone else, rangers or celtic supporter, may have been their victim, or would have given them a kicking.

 

In the last few weeks in London there were a running battle between 50 rival supporters. Violence the likes of which we haven't seen between Rangers and Celtic fans in decades. Somehow hooligan violence is better than sectarian.

 

Like sectarianism, Sexism is just backwards, sexism in the workplace is justifiably illegal, and domestic violence is likewise. I’m willing to think that people who call me a “Hun orange bastards” are illiterate morons beneath my contempt, but if they start denying me a job over it, or giving me a kicking because of it, then it’s a problem. If this happens all the time, to lots of people like me, then it’s a social problem. However, if, in fact, the abuse comes from a gross minority who 99% of people don’t take seriously enough to let them be in a position to deny anyone a job, then its not a social problem, its just an unpleasant fact of life in changing times. I’m secure enough in my religion not to be devastated by someone sitting a few hundred yards away singing at me. I’m quite sure the Pope is too, sitting hundreds of miles away. I’m sure every sensible person in Scotland finds bigotry moronic, but not so moronic as to have it affect their lives – other than hearing it be constantly mulled over in the papers, and the pointless time dedicated to it in parliament.

 

Your average Scot does not experience verbal sectarian abuse, much less social repression or violence, much less are those who experience it regularly, and they are too few for it to be anything like an epidemic of social decay.

 

Just let it die naturally, I say – don’t portray it sensationally, and unfairly, and give it a cause, and a bunch of reactionary martyrs. We’ve just went through an article discussing very highly charged issues sensibly and reasonably, and we’re just ordinary people – it’s the least we should expect of our esteemed politicians and columnists. I’m not at all right – there is plenty of scope for further debate (Is the abuse shouted at football games even best described as sectarian? Should children be exposed to it? Should they be exposed to any shouting at a football match?) but lets just hope its in a sensible manner, seeking common and easy terms and definitions to discuss it in.

[Frankie 8,136]

Superb stuff mate.

 

The kind of logical article we SHOULD be reading in a broadsheet.

 

Will get it on the main site tomorrow. KUTGW!

[pete 2,494]

Good piece but one i totally disagree with. Turning a blind eye does not just make things die down or go away. Try telling the parents of all the kids who commit suicide due to school bullying that we should let the bullies get on with it in the hope it stops.

You may be Psychologically strong enough to turn a blind eye to abuse be it verbal or Psychological, but the fact is millions of people are not and these people who are Psychologically weaker have to be protected by the stronger minded.

Secondly why should the majority accept the morals and values of these morons in the minority as you say. I agree that using force to eradicate anything mostly works in the opposite direction and makes people more staunch. We must not turn a blind eye on any anti-social behaviour , nor should we use force to eradicate it, but we should be trying to educate people especially kids from a young age.

 

Teaching people to respect one another is the way forward and that has to be taught by parents to there kids, not learning them *** and other party pieces before they are out their nappies.

As for Ibrox, Rangers have control of who comes into the stadium. If you want to support Rangers then you are welcome but if you want to support bigotry, then no turning any blind eye, all supporters have now been well warned they will not be welcome in the future.

The government are voted in by the majority and are totally correct in trying to eradicate any anti-social behaviour be it bigotry, racism, terrorism etc but it has to be eradicated on both sides of the divide and that is where things are not always on an even ground.

Things won't change overnight but if nobody does anything they won't change at all. Although we hated UEFA's stance against us, maybe in the long run it will be a blessing in disguise.

[Frankie 8,136]

I don't think Barry is suggesting we turn a blind eye to it. The articles is simply a devil's advocate piece suggesting that by continually highlighting what is a minimal problem, we're actually popularising it.

 

In addition, Barry does also state that the bullying problem is actually worse long term and that these kind of problems should be debated much more in depth rather than simply straight condemnation which doesn't always work.

[bmck 117]

Good piece but one i totally disagree with.

 

thanks for the response pete, i'm glad you disagree because it affords sensible debate on the matter. like frankie says, i'm not really professing to be right, just trying to set the discussion in context. moreover, i've not tried to offer any geniune solutions in the article, just tried to exposed why current rhetoric on the subject is entirely unable to deal with the problem.

 

Turning a blind eye does not just make things die down or go away.

 

sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. i'm not for turning a blind eye at all though, so it doesn't matter. i vehemently support anyone - a recent example being the joint bid of the RST and supporters associations - who are willing to discuss the problem sensibly, without sensation. essentially what i'm advocating is happening - the majority who find sectarianism, like me, disgusting are letting their opinion be known in a way they haven't before. there's no mock drama about the 'evil' of sectarianism in scotland, they are just addressing the problem as they see it. this is something i see as the natural de-evolution of ideas - sectarianism is dying because the people will not stand it, but not because it must be slaughtered for Downright Evil That It Is, type thing.

 

my point was really that the sectarian problem receives infinitely more press than the domestic abuse problem in scotland - but there isnt even a helpline for sectarian abuse quite simply because people do not feel abused by it. its unpleasant, but not a symptom of widespread urban decay. it should be dealt with, certainly, but not on grander terms than it need be.

 

Try telling the parents of all the kids who commit suicide due to school bullying that we should let the bullies get on with it in the hope it stops.

 

thats not what i've said at all. i think my examples showed quite clearly that the emotional abuse suffered in the second example was worse than the first because it had geniune psychological effects - something that sectarianism in scotland does not have. i didnt suggest nothing should be done about it at all.

 

You may be Psychologically strong enough to turn a blind eye to abuse be it verbal or Psychological, but the fact is millions of people are not and these people who are Psychologically weaker have to be protected by the stronger minded.

 

i'll continue to make the contention that there is not one person in scotland who suffers geniune psychological abuse on account of their protestantism/catholicism - and if they do, there are adequate and appropriate laws to deal with it. but one place this DEFINITELY DOESN'T happen is in football grounds - the centre of this whole sham media attention.

 

Secondly why should the majority accept the morals and values of these morons in the minority as you say. I agree that using force to eradicate anything mostly works in the opposite direction and makes people more staunch.

 

we dont accept them - we publicly disagree. but you yourself seem to realise how precerious it is to use force to justify your own morality - its been the biggest cause of pointless death and oppression in history.

 

 

We must not turn a blind eye on any anti-social behaviour , nor should we use force to eradicate it, but we should be trying to educate people especially kids from a young age.

 

no disagreement there - but, then, i havent suggested anything different have i? the only thing i'm suggesting in the article isn't working is the press and government response, insofar as it makes the problem bigger than it is.

 

i'll say it again - sectarianism is not a big problem in scotland. its just not. its a problem, but it can be dealt with sensibly, and is much less of a priority than the attention it receives.

[Super_Ally 0]

I don't think Barry is suggesting we turn a blind eye to it. The articles is simply a devil's advocate piece suggesting that by continually highlighting what is a minimal problem, we're actually popularising it.

 

Dont have time to read this thoroughly right now as i'm "revising" for my finals.

 

However this is what has really been pissing me off over this entire issue. Joke McConnel etc making a mountain out of a molehill to hide many other gaping deficiencies in the way the country is being run. Farcical state of affairs and why more people don't take politicians to task over this I don't know.

[pete 2,494]

Turning a blind eye does not just make things die down or go away.

 

 

BMCK

sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. i'm not for turning a blind eye at all though, so it doesn't matter. i vehemently support anyone - a recent example being the joint bid of the RST and supporters associations - who are willing to discuss the problem sensibly, without sensation. essentially what i'm advocating is happening - the majority who find sectarianism, like me, disgusting are letting their opinion be known in a way they haven't before. there's no mock drama about the 'evil' of sectarianism in scotland, they are just addressing the problem as they see it. this is something i see as the natural de-evolution of ideas - sectarianism is dying because the people will not stand it, but not because it must be slaughtered for Downright Evil That It Is, type thing.

 

my point was really that the sectarian problem receives infinitely more press than the domestic abuse problem in scotland - but there isnt even a helpline for sectarian abuse quite simply because people do not feel abused by it. its unpleasant, but not a symptom of widespread urban decay. it should be dealt with, certainly, but not on grander terms than it need be.

 

 

The thing is if this was not thrown up by UEFA or the government, neither the RST or any other supporters would be trying to change things at the speed things are happening now. The Billy Boys and *** would still be echoing round the Ibrox terraces.

Force is not the way to change things but sometimes people need a shove in the right direction to get things going. Whether people feel abused or not, is not the issue the fact is it is anti-social behaviour and as a society we should be trying to eradicate that behaviour.

This does not mean people can't hold their beliefs it means they\we have to learn to live next to and respect others with other beliefs.

 

Try telling the parents of all the kids who commit suicide due to school bullying that we should let the bullies get on with it in the hope it stops.

 

BMCK

thats not what i've said at all. i think my examples showed quite clearly that the emotional abuse suffered in the second example was worse than the first because it had geniune psychological effects - something that sectarianism in scotland does not have. i didnt suggest nothing should be done about it at all.

 

Unfortunately religion\sectarianism is one of the possible reasons kids and also adults are bullied.

Also a kid in a Rangers or Celtic top getting stabbed may not be a sectarian act as you say, it may be a knife culture but surely the way to go forward is to eradicate them both and rid ourselves of the deed and the possible motive.

 

 

BMCK

i'll continue to make the contention that there is not one person in scotland who suffers geniune psychological abuse on account of their protestantism/catholicism - and if they do, there are adequate and appropriate laws to deal with it. but one place this DEFINITELY DOESN'T happen is in football grounds - the centre of this whole sham media attention.

 

Protestantism/Catholicism or even Muslim certainly doesn't preach psychological abuse if they are followed in the right way. Unfortunately some abuse these religions and use them as a reason to hate.

As you say, sectarian killings are possibly teenage thuggery, but by your same yes and no way of thinking, there is a huge possibility that it is sectarian. If a person is knifed or attacked on his way home from a game by youths wearing opposite colours and he\she doesn't die, do you not think this would leave massive psychological scars?

When you are trying to fumigate rats you have to fumigate the whole house you cannot allow them clear areas as they will only breed, that is why football grounds have to be targeted as well as they are seen as havens for bigots to shout their abuse.

 

I am glad we both agree that education is the right way forward and as i said it is not about losing our religion but accepting and respecting other peoples beliefs.

[bmck 117]

cheers for that pete. points well made - i dont think we're too far apart.