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2 minutes ago, craig said:

And he’s absolutely spot on.  Because the ONLY thing that resisting will do is escalate matters.  It will NEVER de-escalate them.

Plus another factor is that George Floyd wasn't shot and to my knowledge a gun was never drawn.

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2 minutes ago, craig said:

ANY police officer shouldn’t reach until they believe they are being threatened.

 

You say the guy in Atlanta shouldn’t have been fired upon.  What if he had tased the cop he took the taser from and then took his forearm from him whilst he was incapacitated ?  That officer’s life was at risk.

 

Even if he felt it was wrongful arrest he literally broke the law right there by taking the officer’s taser - yep, that would have endEd up well in court wouldn’t it ?
 

you can’t compare the British police to the US police.  British police know there is a fairly low (though not zero) chance of someone carrying a weapon.  The opposite is true in the US.  The threats against life are far greater in the US

At least it would have got to court. I just think about the timing and the context of the moment. As it is, that cop is facing a murder rap. Public outrage might not ensure he gets a fair one.

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2 hours ago, Thinker said:

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to suggest that you hadn't listened to it in full - I can see how it read that way.

I was intending to back up your recomendation, to all posters, of it being well worth a listen.

 

I've passed the link to a number of people - I know so many folk who, to this point, have shown no interest in rationally analysing the facts around perceived police racism (in America and beyond). It seems like they just want a simplistic story of goodies and baddies so that they can vent their outrage. And (as Sam says) if you dare hint that things may be more nuanced and complex there's a real danger that the mob will turn on you.

JFK always thinks before posting and though I often disagree with him it makes a change from purely visceral reaction (sometimes am guilty of that myself).

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1 hour ago, Gonzo79 said:

Social media doesn't help.  I have associates on both sides with this situation and all they do is converse with like minded people, resulting in sharpening attitudes.

 

I don't doubt that some Police officers (here and in the US) are a bit racist.  But there are other factors involved and it's not as simple as many are suggesting.  

 

Tantrums and finger-pointing become tedious in a very short timeframe. 

Agree with that. I don't do twatter and don't intend to start but it does raise the question  of who we turn to for our news. We cannot expect objectivity when the mainstream is controlled by vested interests.

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21 minutes ago, alexscottislegend said:

but it does raise the question  of who we turn to for our news

I think it was discussed briefly earlier on this thread - it's best to get information from a variety of sources, add a dash of scepticism and make up your own mind.  

 

The BBC should be a central 'go to' news outlet but its objectivity is now outwith the bounds of reason.

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48 minutes ago, alexscottislegend said:

JFK always thinks before posting and though I often disagree with him it makes a change from purely visceral reaction (sometimes am guilty of that myself).

I have been listening to Sam Harris for years, he doesn't have a racist bone in his body and agrees that cops in the US are overly aggressive and poorly trained. And that needs to be addressed.


But from an entirely non racist perspective he would convincingly argue that the great focus of protesting police violence being on just police violence against blacks is helping nothing.

Of all the people cops shoot and kill in the US 25% are blacks, 50% are whites, and presumably the remaining are non black or white minorities. Probably largely Hispanics.


Which means blacks are being killed by police at a rate slightly less than double that you would expect to see if the only criteria were their percentage of the population. But there are other factors in play.


First take into account that the vast majority of these shooting cases are entirely justified. Violent career criminals acting in a violent manner, mostly armed, and including trying to kill police. The unjustified cases are actually a small percentage but that's what everyone focuses on?


Blacks across the US are 6 times more likely to be murdered than whites and in some cities 12 times more likely. But 95% of those murders of blacks are committed by other blacks. Isn't that something BLM should be focused on? It could save far more black lives.


Further there is data to suggest that while blacks are disproportionately in relation to their population more likely to attract police attention across a broad spectrum right down to just traffic stops. There is also data to suggest that they commit disproportionately more crime which leads to more incidents of arrest scenarios.


And yet further, there is data to suggest that once an arrest is in progress, whites are actually 25% more likely to be killed by police than blacks are.


Listen to Harris for say 15 minutes from the point I have primed the video to begin. Then if you have any issue with anything he has to say come back with it and we can discuss it. Who knows. You may change my mind on some points.


My mind has been changed many times in the past on various issues, and that's the way it should be as new information comes to my attention. My mind has been changed in some respects on the issue at hand here. And not by some racist right wing ideology.

The opposite in fact. By Harris among others who are the polar opposite of right wing racist ideologists.


While as you're likely aware there are are far too many who adhere to a rigid right or left ideology and will not move from it no matter what new information is introduced to them.


If you want to give yourself a better chance of being delivered non biased news/information you should make a habit of clearing browser caches and cookies. If not what you're likely to get are links confirming what it thinks you want to hear. I clear cache and cookies every time I close the browser.


So here it is, try listening for at least 15 minutes from the point it will start.
 

 

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8 hours ago, alexscottislegend said:

Go on then enlighten me. That was a response to the suggestion that there should be no furlough payments. If you can't work and have to pay a mortgage what the hell are you meant to do?

Enlightenment passes you by. 

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4 hours ago, alexscottislegend said:

"To not comply in the heat of the moment." Yes I did listen properly and I suppose the debate really should be about gun law. Only problem is Harris is talking about the specific Floyd incident (and we all know he was no angel) and we have to wonder about all the specific situations in all the other deaths we have had (black and white). What is incomprehensible to me is that, given the huge publicity and the sensitivity of the moment with police units being defunded and so on, we have had yet another incident (in Atlanta last Friday) of a man being shot twice in the back (pathologists' report). He apparently grabbed the officer's taser and began to run. One would think that the officer should have called for back-up, given chase - anything but open fire, knowing that it could have led to another riot.  After all, tasers are not meant to kill (although ex-footballer Dalian Atkinson was tasered to death). Yet no and the result is another death.

Thought he was a civil rights lawyer?

 

Sure I read that somewhere 9_9

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9 hours ago, alexscottislegend said:

No I am not. But you referred to yourself to a disparity of treatment which is what led to BLM. If I was black I would feel nervous in the south if pulled over by a white cop.

You've watched too much 1960's TV. The south is where there's least racial tension. Most of the issues are in northern cities like Chicago.

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