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Russia, Ukraine


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5 hours ago, der Berliner said:

They could have invented "prisoners of a military operation" just for you, perhaps. 

 

As for Bill and FS, there`s none so blind than those who don`t want to see, as they say. Under the ignore carpet then ...

"Special Operation", thats what RT were calling it before they were asked to bugger off back to Moscow. Lets not kid ourselves, both sides will be well into the atrocities by now. Just like in the Balkans, Syria, ISIS controlled Iraq and anywhere else you care to mention, its just the progression of war.

 

But I would like the Russians to come out and admit that it is war, one which they started back in 2014 and now this one isn't going to plan either, they will just grab more of Eastern Ukraine for their NATO buffer which will stretch from Belarus in the North, and through Eastern Ukraine, down to the South with the areas of Georgia they have occupied via another Russian backed seperatist group and direct Russian involvement since 2008...... sound familiar?  

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, ChelseaBoy said:

... Lets not kid ourselves, both sides will be well into the atrocities by now. Just like in the Balkans, Syria, ISIS controlled Iraq and anywhere else you care to mention, its just the progression of war.

 

But I would like the Russians to come out and admit that it is war, ...

You're right about the war crimes. It's very sad but these things are likely to happen in any conflict of a sufficient size. Take our masters in U.S.A. controlled Afghanistan and U.S.A. controlled Iraq for just two recent examples.

 

Has either Russia or Ukraine declared war yet? If not then why not?

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19 minutes ago, ChelseaBoy said:

"Special Operation", thats what RT were calling it before they were asked to bugger off back to Moscow. Lets not kid ourselves, both sides will be well into the atrocities by now. Just like in the Balkans, Syria, ISIS controlled Iraq and anywhere else you care to mention, its just the progression of war.

 

But I would like the Russians to come out and admit that it is war, one which they started back in 2014 and now this one isn't going to plan either, they will just grab more of Eastern Ukraine for their NATO buffer which will stretch from Belarus in the North, and through Eastern Ukraine, down to the South with the areas of Georgia they have occupied via another Russian backed seperatist group and direct Russian involvement since 2008...... sound familiar?  

 

 

 

 

I would argue that the whole Maidan affair was staged with not a little help by the US (on their own admittance), a Kiev-led attack on all things pro-Russian was started in the whole of the Ukraine (as was witnessed in e.g. the Odessa massacre and the killings of dozens of pro-Russian politicians), and military strikes were carried out to the Donbass region, which continued after the latter held a referendum and elections to split apart from Kiev-led Ukraine. That`s not imagination, it is well documented. Now was Russia was behind all of that? Well, they sure lend aid to these Donbass people of Russian ethnicity. Could you blame them for it or indeed make that all a very very very special case? When the US where behind the turnover of the original Ukraine government - bad as it might have been - the one that followed was no least worse after all, just installed by the West. When the US alone admitted trying to force government changes in 72 countries post war, succeeding in quite a few cases. And its not whattaboutery here, its just that once it is Russia, the scales are off, history is forgotten and the whole scenario that made not a single European politician blink more than once since 2014 onwards becomes an affair blown all of out diplomatic and economical proportions. And even in your quote you can see that, since everywhere else in the world, if some band of people raise up against a dictator, a naughty government or whatever, these people become freedom fighters, independence seekers, rebells, patriots and whatnot. Yet, if they turn towards Russia for help, assistance et al, against a - if not the say their previous - government that shells them with artillery and missiles because of it, they become "seperatists". All roughly 3 million of them that deserve to be attacked or killed by Azov nationalists? There are enough documentaries by people fully unaligned to either side out there, if one choses to look. As far as I am concerned, the war that waged from 2014 till Russian intervention was one between Ukrainian people.

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31 minutes ago, ranger_syntax said:

You're right about the war crimes. It's very sad but these things are likely to happen in any conflict of a sufficient size. Take our masters in U.S.A. controlled Afghanistan and U.S.A. controlled Iraq for just two recent examples.

 

Has either Russia or Ukraine declared war yet? If not then why not?

I think Russia is being a little bit coy about using that particular word. 

 

I think Ukraine know full well they are in a war situation given that Russian forces are operating within UN recognised Ukranian territory. Russia are still perpetuating a "special operation" or "miliitary operation" myth.  

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1 hour ago, ChelseaBoy said:

I think Russia is being a little bit coy about using that particular word. 

 

I think Ukraine know full well they are in a war situation given that Russian forces are operating within UN recognised Ukranian territory. Russia are still perpetuating a "special operation" or "miliitary operation" myth.  

Sorry, does this mean that neither side has declared war or just that, like me, you don't know?

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53 minutes ago, ChelseaBoy said:

Does one or both sides HAVE to declare war, for there to be war?  

It's difficult for me to say because I don't know the significance of the term. (See simple questions above)

 

I only asked you because you appear to think it is important.

 

I think you are being a little coy about answering these particular questions.

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3 hours ago, der Berliner said:

... a Kiev-led attack on all things pro-Russian was started in the whole of the Ukraine (as was witnessed in e.g. the Odessa massacre ...

Is that the thing where some Ukranian nationalists chased about 40 anti-Maidan protesters into a building and burned them to death?

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12 minutes ago, ranger_syntax said:

It's difficult for me to say because I don't know the significance of the term. (See simple questions above)

 

I only asked you because you appear to think it is important.

 

I think you are being a little coy about answering these particular questions.

I'm fine with the War terminology as are most people outside of Russia. It seems only the Russian state and apologists elsewhere that are coy about using it.  

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One country invades another and carries out a shooting war. The invaded nation defends itself. Despite the best efforts of Russia's apologists, this is the reality that no amount of weasel words can change. It's a war. Formally declared or not, it's a war instigated by Russia against Ukraine. No amount of whataboutery concerning the US, China or other countries changes the fact that Russia made this war and has, from the outset, preferred to kill Ukrainian civilians and destroy cities, rather than confront the Ukrainian military. A lack of squeaky clean innocence elsewhere makes no difference to the barbarism of a despotic Russian state.

 

Without the active threat of nuclear weapons, I doubt if Russian forces would still be anywhere near Ukraine. 

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