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On 23/06/2022 at 21:10, Bill said:

There’s no doubt in my mind the antisemitism is still there, temporarily resting in the shadows. Labour is committed to the Palestinian cause, which inevitably favours those who can also boost their credentials by embracing hatred of Jews. Corbyn may not be leader any more but hasn’t gone away and plenty of his activist acolytes remain in place. They persist because no Labour leader can really afford to attack these antisemites, in the same way Sturgeon can’t possibly criticise Irish republicans. 

So...one cannot support the right of Palestinians without being anti-semitic at the same time? Wow.

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On 23/06/2022 at 14:34, compo said:

Destroy the strikers oh for a leader like the good lady Thatcher 

Let's imagine for a minute that there had never been any trade unions; what agency for progressive change would have taken their place? (And I'd like an answer this time, not hang'em flog'em or whatever).

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38 minutes ago, alexscottislegend said:

Let's imagine for a minute that there had never been any trade unions; what agency for progressive change would have taken their place? (And I'd like an answer this time, not hang'em flog'em or whatever).

When your company makes its profit then a certain percentage is put aside to pay your workforce more and they must also except that in any downturn then any rise in wages will not be so generous and I always made sure they got a Christmas bonus 

 

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1 hour ago, alexscottislegend said:

So...one cannot support the right of Palestinians without being anti-semitic at the same time? Wow.

It's possible of course that there are some people around with sufficient self-awareness to be anti-zionist without being antisemitic but I think these are a deeply endangered species. For the vast majority of course, one thing follows the other, especially in the superficial world of political careerism.

 

It's no secret, Labour tied its wagon to the Palestinian cause long ago. It was ideal for Labour - it appeared to be anti-establishment and since Israel was seen to be tied to America it had the added attraction of appealing to the left-leaning, pseudo-radical youth. Who knows how many, if any, within Labour give a shiny shit about Palestine, the fact is it is an adopted emblem and therefore to be embellished at every turn. Like the anti-apartheid movement and Irish republicanism before it, Palestinianism has been nailed to the Labour mast like so many flags of identity. It's essentially a branding exercise.

 

Having adopted Palestine, one thing must inevitably follow another, there's really no political alternative. Palestinians hate Israelis, Israel is a jewish homeland, Palestinians are overtly antisemitic, Labour cannot adequately defend its declared support for Palestine without sympathising with Palestinian causes.

 

You might try to escape this inevitable truth by challenging the extent of possibility but in the context of the real world you know I'm right. If Labour have never hitched its wagon to the Palestinians and buried their hatefest deep within its party identity, it would in all likelihood have no antisemitic issues. For you to declare that there could be someone somewhere who could exercise sufficient cerebral control to show fondness for Palestinians and Jews ... well it might be vaguely interesting but it's irrelevant to the vast majority of today's Labour Party.

 

For most people, and certainly politicians, anti-Zionism and antisemitism are indistinguishable in fact and any separation is only a convenient subterfuge to disguise this truth.

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14 minutes ago, Bill said:

It's possible of course that there are some people around with sufficient self-awareness to be anti-zionist without being antisemitic but I think these are a deeply endangered species. For the vast majority of course, one thing follows the other, especially in the superficial world of political careerism.

 

It's no secret, Labour tied its wagon to the Palestinian cause long ago. It was ideal for Labour - it appeared to be anti-establishment and since Israel was seen to be tied to America it had the added attraction of appealing to the left-leaning, pseudo-radical youth. Who knows how many, if any, within Labour give a shiny shit about Palestine, the fact is it is an adopted emblem and therefore to be embellished at every turn. Like the anti-apartheid movement and Irish republicanism before it, Palestinianism has been nailed to the Labour mast like so many flags of identity. It's essentially a branding exercise.

 

Having adopted Palestine, one thing must inevitably follow another, there's really no political alternative. Palestinians hate Israelis, Israel is a jewish homeland, Palestinians are overtly antisemitic, Labour cannot adequately defend its declared support for Palestine without sympathising with Palestinian causes.

 

You might try to escape this inevitable truth by challenging the extent of possibility but in the context of the real world you know I'm right. If Labour have never hitched its wagon to the Palestinians and buried their hatefest deep within its party identity, it would in all likelihood have no antisemitic issues. For you to declare that there could be someone somewhere who could exercise sufficient cerebral control to show fondness for Palestinians and Jews ... well it might be vaguely interesting but it's irrelevant to the vast majority of today's Labour Party.

 

For most people, and certainly politicians, anti-Zionism and antisemitism are indistinguishable in fact and any separation is only a convenient subterfuge to disguise this truth.

I sincerely thank you for taking the time to give a considered reply devoid of your usual cynicism. I don't think you need to exercise much 'cerebral control' though to realise that many celebrated socialists were Jewish inc. the most celebrated of all; and that's the problem with the Labour Party, that very few members in fact are actually socialists. We've derailed this thread so let's leave it there.

 

 

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1 hour ago, compo said:

When your company makes its profit then a certain percentage is put aside to pay your workforce more and they must also except that in any downturn then any rise in wages will not be so generous and I always made sure they got a Christmas bonus 

 

You didn't actually answer my question, though I have no doubt that you were a good employer. My point remains though that conditions have only improved because of the power of collective bargaining and maybe one or two enlightened individuals like Lord Shaftesbury. 

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1 hour ago, alexscottislegend said:

I sincerely thank you for taking the time to give a considered reply devoid of your usual cynicism.

I assure you there was no shortage of cynicism.

 

 

1 hour ago, alexscottislegend said:

I don't think you need to exercise much 'cerebral control' though to realise that many celebrated socialists were Jewish inc. the most celebrated of all

I don't think Palestinians were hijacking aircraft, shooting up the Olympics or terrorising Europe when that bastard was alive and the Jews hadn't returned to their old stomping ground.

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1 hour ago, alexscottislegend said:

My point remains though that conditions have only improved because of the power of collective bargaining

Collective bargaining has generally been in short supply since WW2. Lot's of demanding and political expeditioning, no small amount of bullying of members, etc but very little genuine bargaining. 

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20 hours ago, Bill said:

I assure you there was no shortage of cynicism.

 

 

I don't think Palestinians were hijacking aircraft, shooting up the Olympics or terrorising Europe when that bastard was alive and the Jews hadn't returned to their old stomping ground.

??

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