rbr

Very fair point UCB.

 

One person's perception of "regular" is another's perception of "irregular". Both your number AND Zappa's (and anyone else for that matter) number are subjective, and therefore NEITHER is absolute nonsense.

 

The main point though is that none of us have ANY idea how many regular contributors there are. But I bet that if we could organise a flyer on the seats on matchday or even a tannoy announcement pre-game regarding some of this (if allowed) would reach out to far more than those we have online.

 

And the trickle effect to other bears would likely be far greater in that regard too.

Or even better if our Chairman made a statement of intent at the AGM and had members of the main fans groups on the stage when he made then , but then if Carlserg did AGM's

Having being unable to get involved in the debate for the last few days, I think I'll start here with regard to the perception being put about that a lesser traffic forum like Gersnet is somehow anti-Trust.

 

The fact is it isn't.

 

Sure, a few posters may have a few legitimate concerns about how the organisation has developed in recent times but, for the most part, these concerns are raised via fair and valid questions and reasonable, sensible debate. Anyone trying to suggest anything else from this (while shirking from taking part themselves) only goes to show just how valid these concerns are.

 

Certainly the usual complaints and misreading of the situation accompanied with petulant insults elsewhere show the existence of any olive branch appears questionable.

 

A pity as I know myself and others are eager to help unify fans in a genuine, tangible sense as shown several months back (and in an ongoing fashion) via the STS project. Of course, once again, the olive branch was ignored then and we're to blame now for simply asking what the difference is in circumstances.

 

For the record, Gersnet are wholly willing to help in any capacity with regard to supporter's opinions being represented in an open, constructive fashion. I know for a fact that the Assembly and Association remain keen to retain that involvement so we look forward to working with them and anyone else looking to improve the fortunes of our club.

Frankie from my own limited use of this site and various other "smaller" sites , the biggest and probably best thing I can say is that these sites encourage debate where as FF has for a few years now strangled and derailed anything from the " party line" , whatever the party line is at any one time .

I had set views on the RST , on rangers in general and on various other matters related to our once great club , the debate on here does not allow you to rest on your laurels if you cannot back your arguement up , in fact the way some debate their points on here at times you or rather I feel a bit stupid for even posting some of the things I have .

All of this is healthy , you dont get people running away screaming timposter if they dont agree with your point of view , there is nothing healthy about posting rubbish and before you know it that rubbish becomes the accepted , drip drip drip anyone , sound familliar to another problem we have .

Back to the main point , this site can never be described as having anything other than the best intentions with regards what we all come on here to talk about which is Rangers , however what I have come to understand is that certain sites namely FF , it's almost as if they are as big as the club and in certain peoples minds obviously as important , the RST had a campaign of Rangers First , some would do well to remember this and adopt it themselves.

So Watson, the culprit is still out there, somewhere beyond that fog.

But is that fog of murray's own doing , now that is the question my dear maineflyer

I think this is impossible to gauge , you hear guys talking about having different usernames depending on the site's they go on, there are definetly timposters by the dozen , and FF is infested with them , that's one reason I rarely post just browse on there .so my answer is more than 1 but less than 1,000,000 , sorry but god only knows

Sorry, I should have checked. Anyway, I thought at the time, and still do, that it was the most insightful comment yet.

Sorry phrased that bit wrong , I was discussing a simillar point with UCB that if the club dont drive this then it's irrelevant what any fans group want or say

No is the answer to that.

Yet the papers were quite happy to state last week that we owed �£9 million for transfers over and above what was disclosed in last weeks financials , the daily mail I think it was

So it's definitely all bollocks then. Even the CIA couldn't come up with seventeen different proposals.

 

Is anyone else getting that old familiar feeling that we're being strung along on another dead end road to nowhere? Rhetoric by the bucket full, if only empty rhetoric could help Rangers ... Murray's didn't and he tried for years.

 

I agreed at the time with the most telling point made yet in any of these threads - from memory it was by Zappa or Calscot, apologies I can't remember which - who said that supporter participation in the future running of the club would only happen if it was promoted voluntarily by the owners of the club. I still believe the Trust, with whatever other organisations in tow, will change nothing unless the club first accepts the benefits of supporter participation and drives it forward. Nothing I've seen so far suggests the Trust is persuading any prospective buyer to follow this path. There will be no revolution at Ibrox. Those who think otherwise don't know this club - or indeed the people who are currently pursuing this change.

Maineflyer I think you have hit the preverbial nail on the head and as every day goes by more and more are backing away from where we were a few weeks ago , Dave King was going to buy us , then he was part of a consortium , next we had the West of Scotland 4 , then on the day the financials were announced the Florida Billionaire which just happened to go against what AJ was pleading for in the media that anyone interested should make themselves known , now the Souness rumour just because he said he didn't want the Scotland job , even Murray couldn't flim flam this well .

As I said earlier and Maineflyer more succinctly pointed out unless the club actually drive this forward and allow any fans group to get behind it we are going nowhere , we cannot successfully change anything without the will of the club

To get back onto the topic of ownership and away from the unity issue UCB (I am not sure that unity issue will ever fully be resolved anyway)...

 

1. Is there any kind of timeline surrounding when the 17 different plans will be made public ?2. Will the fans as a whole have the opportunity to provide feedback ?

3. Who will determine the best plan ? The fan groups or is there some other mechanism to allow others input ?

4. Have the fan groups approached the club with these ?

5. Have the fan groups spoken to the club about what the citical path timing wise is ?

 

I am sure there are other questions but trying to move forward I think that the pivotal piece for us is what the plans are with regards to fan ownership, be it OMOV, proportional representation or some form of hybrid.

sorry I seem to have missed this point where did this point 1 come from

Here's something for you to chew on with your peers...

 

The duration of the upcoming AGM is hugely important. Instead of 30-45mins, 2-3 hours is required for real debate.

 

Now, the unified fan organisations should be calling for that publicly to ensure it happens. That is something that everyone would agree with and thus some common ground would be found. Something small but solid to build on.

That is a very very good point and hopefully something that the club would recognise without having to be asked , if they seriously think this years AGM is going to be done and dusted as per they are very much mistaken

I was just saying we are where we are and we're going to carry on, that's all. I've probably said my last on the 'unity' question for now, it's going round in circles.

This is / was my point it isn't your responsibility to declare peace/unity , it is for the club to enter into dialogue with us the fans through all these many different groups and come up with a concrete workable coherent plan that we can all unite behind , that's the only way we will move forward .

When the majority of the non internet browsers get the message that is when the ground swell will begin and you are correct in that there is massive good feeling towards this club that can help via the media you talked of this earlier , but for any of this to happen the club needs to get a grip of where it wants to be , whether they are serious about fans owning the club or whether it is just a smokescreen to try and flush out would be investors .

Hi Craig,

 

I typed out a long response there, but I've deleted it. As things stand, the Trust has set its course and signalled its intentions, in concert with the Assembly and the Association. It is going ahead mate.

 

Now, if people want to stand on the sidelines shouting "resign! disunity!" that's up to them and they (and everyone else) can make their own minds up on whether that helps or hinders Rangers. And on whether it unifies or otherwise.

 

What we have is a broad and growing bunch of Rangers fans who believe in supporter ownership and the need for action. That is the common ground and is what we should build on.

The RST , Assembly and Association should all be applauded for their actions , and like Frankis alludes to should be getting together to try and get one unified message across , now we have a different leadership at Rangers , Murray is away and from what I have seen and heard from Bain to a certain degree the shackles have been removed . Surely now is the time for the club to work with the support in getting the message out to the high fan base the club holds on file , whether through a mass e-mail , text , clubweb site what ever .

Also it should be explained who and what each supporters group actually represents , I as a member of the RST know what their aims and objectives are , well some of them anyway , but as for the Assembly and Association , not a clue .

Also what about NARSA they have a hugh fanbase , we are limited only by our own imagination and from what I have seen and read over the last few weeks and even years the Rangers fans are truly in a league of their own .

:spl::spl:

With no disrespect to anyone involved the easiest way to address the unity issue would be for those within the Trust who are perceived to have created the divide in the first place (whether the perception is right or wrong is almost irrelevant at this stage - so long as the perception is there it is real) to tender their resignations and let someone else step in who could actually promote unity from a clean slate.

 

I am not saying this is the right or wrong way to go about it but it would remove some of the historical stigma attached to the RST.

 

How that would impact the efforts though I simply dont know as some of these people may be the ones with the contacts, I dont know.

Craig I dont think simply changing the elected members would go far enough or even achieve anything perception wise , there are far too many different supporters factions , if you ask any fan at Ibrox who doesn't visit an online site they will just give you a very baffled look , we are far to fragmented and have to come together under one common aim , and that is Rangers , how that is achieved I do not know but the main groups must face up to this and do it pronto

Why urgently, you are making a drama out of paper talk, are you implying that Rangers are in immediate danger of financial meltdown, Martin Bains statement in the accounts says very differently. It appears a lot of glory hunters are looking for their 15 minutes of fame out of this media driven and invented drama, Rangers FC are in no danger despite the doom merchants.

The bottom line is very simple either MIH and Rangers by assocciation are trading legally or they are not, either solvent or insolvent, solvent being the obvious answer, investment is always welcome in any business but we wont go bust tomorrow or next year if we don't get it. The club as always will go in the direction plotted by SDM, somethings never change despite the window dressing.

This is so like the debates that started around the end of Wee Dick's tenure when respected posters started really questioniong the viability of our transfer policy only to be shouted down by the MURRAY is God brigade , of which I happened to belong at that time and for my sins , now we have a very simillar situation except you either believe we are in trouble or you believe it is a big scary bogey story by the press , well I have read far too much , and listened to the opinions of friends inside the media to believe this is anything but real , if you continually want to believe everything is hunky dorey then batter at it , your glass will always be full .

Spanner,

 

The Chairman said the following things last week;

 

1. he had fought very hard for an independent Board at RFC in the last 2 months

2. RFC is in the position where it relies on acquiescence of the bank to underpin the running of the club

3. the business plan is acceptable to the bank but is not satisfactory to RFC

4. the business plan does not satisfy the ambitions of the club

 

 

We are hostage to this unsatisfactory arrangement now which is why we urgently need significant fresh capital to come forward.

 

If nothing changes, what direction do you see the club going in, either in January or in June and what are the implications would you say?

Very well put UCB , on another point but hopefully still relative to this thread , as a lifetime member of the trust that didn't make the last AGM , at this critical time do you agree that getting the message across not only to RST , Assembly , Assosciation members , but the whole support is an absolute must and what means are being put in place to do this if any , also the talk about a " figurehead " to face up the campaign is getting alot of press , do you also agree that whoever this may be they must be in it for the long haul and not to give it a bit of glitz or glammer . Sorry this is turning into Prime Minister's question's :)

Why are posters putting it about that Rangers are in immediate mortal danger, when they are anything but.

 

Hearts debt by comparison is �£38+ million and they are hardly in the same financial league as us. I do not see anyone preparing obituaries for them.

 

As stated bludell, you have substantiated nothing.

you are the one keeping this going , you started your first post on this by stating you weren't a financial expert , 5 pages on your word is gospel and respected posters not only on this site but on many Rangers site's are having to back up their own opinions to suit yours , which by the way is just an opinion and nothing you have posted has been backed up by facts either .

Spanner I am not trying to muscle in on your debate , but after reading this whole thread what exactly is the jist of your point , is it that the situation is not as bad as is being made out ,by the chairman , by Walter Smith and by the media in general some of whom are financial journalist who are not idiots and are not swayed by a love of a certain club .

If this is the case is this some super plot by Murray with the collusion of A J and our manager to dupe everyone into what exactly !!!!

We are at a crossroads , as a support we must decide how we move forward , there are posters on here much better and far cleverer than me at expressing the views and concerns necessary to make this a possibility , but this is not something to be rushed at . Who ever the single benifactor , or consortium turn out to be , they must work with the support to find common ground , this situation must never be allowed to arise again and we must find a solution that gives us something we have been sadly lacking for years , STABILITY , only then can we move forward without having to continually be in a continual wave of boom or bust , buy or sell .

The various factions and supporters groups of which I for one believe are too many , must come together under one banner , the support is already divided and truly apathetic to what is happening with the vast majority believing , especially , at this time of year that a Santa figure is going to save us .

One thing is certain , the situation is serious no matter what spin you may put on it.

Roxburgh was indeed a pretentious arse and it seems to me his tenure was when Scottish football started sliding and it hasn't stopped since.

That era was my watershed moment with Scotland , we beat Cyprus at hamrden just McCoist and johnston the scorers in a 2-1 win , but they played us off the park .

We then had the debacle of Italy 1990 and we were truly shambolic , from the stories of the players having to behave like school kids having their tops tucked in and their socks all the same length's to having to play wee games and sing songs , it was more like a boys scouts outing than a serious football competition .

Yet where is this arse of a man , at the very heart of UEFA advising on all things football , you couldn't make it up if you tried :giruy:

Let's be honest about this , the whole set up was a shambles right from the get go , no city in Britain could or would have expected the influx of supporters that we took and certainly Manchester were as unprepared as they possibly could have been .

On the way home the day after there was a gentleman on Radio Scotland , his name I unfortunately didn't catch , anyway it turned out he was Glasgow District Council's major events manager and had been down to liase and assist the Manchester authorities , whilst not condoning the behaviour of the fans beecause we have to accept some of the blame , he absolutely slaughtered the setup and the shambolic preperations as well as the exceptionally poor control of resources on the day , now the reason I mention this is because the Evening Times contacted him later to do a follow up story on what he had witnessed only to be told that he was under instructions from his employer's ( the cooncil ) not to make his views known to anyone especially the press , but that he was compilying a full report , it later transpired that this report was never either published or made available .

No matter what happened that day will still live with me forever and no matter what my feelings are about Wattie I will forever be grateful to him for getting the opportunity to see my club take part in a major european final , something I never thought I would get to experience .

Even better was getting my picture taken holding the trophy with Ray Wilkins just before it was taken away to be placed on the pitch , fantastic

It isn't rocket science really , kids from a young age are being asked to train and play on pitches which quite frankly you would think we kept animals on , time after time games are called off at the last minute as piches are deemed unplayable , and the kids just get more and more fed up .

Why we dont move youth football to the summer months is beyond me the pitches are better the weather is generally better , well at least the rain is warm ,the light is better , seriously we are a back water and so stuck in our ways it's not true .

The approach to our professional game is just as bad watch any football at any level and you see the same stuff , players unable to do the basics well , very little appreciation of any positional play and very very little movement off the ball , our complete lack of ability in this field is what amazes me more than anything , year after year we watch small teams from very small leagues come over and completly pass us off the park , their movement off the ball is a joy to behold yet we never learn , why is a mystery and must be down to coaching , until we change this basic style of play we will never improve , but what do I know ,I never went to Largs !!!!!!

Just wait to see the media backlash against not just Boyd but Rangers as a club , christ they quote Burley as some type of Scotland legend , well that certainly wasn't my recollection of him , he was overrated , over hyped and he is well gone as should most of the SFA hangers on who only 2 months ago gave him their full backing .

What is required is a total overhaul of our entire game from kids ( 5,6 ) years old right through schools football to how we actually coach kids . The Largs Mafia which was set up by that arse Roxbourgh is a total sham which has never achieved anything ofote in all the years it has been around , sooner or later we will wake up to how badly we run football in this country and instead of critiscizing the kids actually realise how badly we have let them down

cheers guys it just further enhanced my own feelings that the continual drip drip effect is unfortunately working , hopefully come a change in ownership will come a change in direction as well , obviously the press feel they have an open goal to shoot into , and as Liewell continually spoon feeds them and feeds them , as Murray also did it has to be said ,they must be feeling pretty smug

Was having a wee discussion last night at work with a few fellow bears about the usual , state of the club , what the future holds etc etc , when one guy started on about how we as a support were worse than celtic ( this came when we were discussing the minute's silence disgrace at Falkirk ), when I asked him to explain what he meant he just said that in his opinion all our songs were worse than theirs , the billy boys , the add on's at the end of songs etc etc .

Now what I was wondering and I dont want a slagging match about his opinions were as that is pointless , has anyone else came across this type of opinion and what arguements did you put up to counter them .

We did debate it for a good couple of hours and in the end he did admit to a change of mind , however I couldn't fathom out his arguement initially ,it does seem to be that they are much more street wise and sly when it comes to this subject , ie the old " it's an old irish folk song " blah blah

looking forward to your thoughts

Just saw the same on FF and decided to e-mail Ewan Cameron on Real Radio to hopefully give it a bit of an airing ,am sure the majority of the press will ignore it

Hello, first time post.

 

Just wanted to say on this matter, it's not really the V finger salute that annoys me. More the fact that in this day and age football players would be binge drinking so close to important matches. Scottish football and probably British in general is held back by poor dieting and drinking. Would Arsene Wenger allow his players to go out heavily drinking? I doubt it. Cesc Fabregas and Eduardo and co would spend their spare time maximising their fitness and looking after themselves. What's worrying from a Scottish perspective too is that apparently half the squad took part in this drinking session, yet just McGregor and Ferguson were punished. I possibly don't know the full story but I don't see why the others weren't given the same punishment. The v thing was then just the icing on the cake. After going against their managers wishes and drinking heavily near a big game, they then showed poor attitude. It says it all that the whole drinking thing seems to be incidental in this matter. If I were boss of football team I'd banish players from all alcohol other than maybe the odd social beer. And if they weren't happy then hard luck. I bet Christiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi don't go out and get pished at the weekends. The 9 in a row team infamously drank fairly heavily together, maybe if they didn't then they wouldn't have got given the run around in Europe so much.

 

To be honest, I don't think McGregor should be allowed back and it's debatable how good a keeper he really is. He's capable of some top saves but barely a week seems to go by without him making some sort of error. If it wasn't for his excellent performance away to Unirea, would we even be having this conversation?

 

Having grown up watching Goram and later Klos putting in world class performances, the last few years have been a culture shock.

You do realise that it was Burley that got the bar opened for them in the first place , also at a get together previously Burley was put to bed by 3 senior players because he was that " out of it " , the press are well aware of what went on but as usual have their own agendas , they protect the few chosen ones at all cost , why let the truth get in the way of a good rammy , as for Scotland , I chucked it when that prat Roxburgh was in charge , and as tor the Tartan Fannies , they are no more than a drunken rabble

Amazing how good some basic honesty feels after the stench of Murray.

The irony in all of this could be finding and yet losing what could have been a very good chairman in a very short space of time , whoever buys/owns us will undoubtadly want their own man and also was Johnston

here for the long run , it's very funny how his appointment has occured at the same time as all this movement .

I do not doubt Murray is deep in the grubber but from our perspective we have made more progress towards new ownership in the last few weeks than gods knows how long under Murray .

The second rebirth of the blues hopefully is not too far away , and hopefully the support and all the various factions can actually get some direction and leadership , at the moment we sound like something from a monty python sketch , bloody splitters