the gunslinger

Yea, I think that would apply to whoever owned us. A large chunk of the fans would prefer a division 3 option rather than playing handicapped in the SPL but the finance guys wouldn't want it.

 

The only thing that may get them to change their minds is if a lot of season ticket holders say they are not going to renew if the handicapped SPL is what we are looking at.

 

I'll renew if we are in div 3. I'll have to think about it if we are SPL with a large penalty and a lack of "sporting integrity".

yeah same applies to every owner.

I too would go in the 3rd division if it was a choice to go down there not a penalty. even under green ownership.

If every season ticket holder paid the £400 into a pot we'd have roughly £16m which would be enough to outbid green three times over. If we could double that and get £800 per head we could offer over 50p in the £1.

 

Why hasn't this source of funding been purseued by the RST or others?

how do you then fund the club for a year?

another 400 each?

CHEATS OR CHEATED?

Beaks should give Gers fans break while probes and battles rumble on

ANALYSIS By James Traynor

Photo captions: ENDURING HISTORY The footballing feats of the likes of club legend John Greig, who was honoured with a statue outside Ibrox, will never be forgotten

NO more than a good John Greig clearance away from Hampden one of the world's oldest clubs lies dying. And no one on Hampden's sixth floor even bats an eyelid.

No one up there in the offices of the SFA and SPL said a word.

Rangers FC as we know them are dead. It's all over. They are about to shut down for ever but not a single person among the game's hierarchy was open for comment.

And that just about sums it up for Rangers, the club the rest of the Scottish game came to detest.

We are still waiting for the verdicts on EBT schemes and dual contracts but the fans of every other club have passed judgment. Rangers are guilty.

Of course they are. They're cheats and liars. Everybody knows that. They can't help themselves, it's in their DNA.

And of course they must be stripped of their titles, trophies and dignity. Oh, and don't forget those five stars above their badge, Get them torn off as well.

It's all madness rooted in jealousies and twisted logic. Rangers have a seriously bad lot but the majority of the people who support the club are decent.

Yet everywhere so many people are waiting to dance on this club's grave.

Well, they should get their pumps and tap shoes tied up because it won't be long now. Yesterday the CVA proposal put forward on behalf of Charles Green by administrators Duff and Phelps was rejected by HMRC.

They didn't even wait until tomorrow's creditors' meeting, although that will still go ahead.

But Rangers FC won't. They'll slip into liquidation within the next couple of weeks with a new company emerging but 140 years of history, triumph and tears, will have ended.

No matter how Charles Green attempts to dress it up, a newco equals a new club. When the CVA was thrown out Rangers as we know them died.

They were closed and a newco must start from scratch although their fans will insist the history will be boxed up with the strips and balls and carried into the future with the new club.

Technically that history belongs to something else, some other company but even though the governing bodies appear consumed by technicalities and protocol supporters have other priorities.

They strive for continuity and Rangers fans will never be separated from or denied their past.

The name might change slightly, there will be a new owner, new players and a new beginning. But somehow nothing will have changed for many of the people who buy the tickets.

HATRED They'll never forget and they'll remember yesterday, too. Even though they and everyone else knew the decision to accept or reject Green's CVA was 50-50 this was such a momentous day in the history of Scottish football.

Yet, unbelievably neither the SPL nor the SFA had anything to say as Rangers' death warrant was signed.

Maybe they were bored, or maybe even stupefied by the twists and turns, outlandish demands and hopes, claims and counter claims which started in May last year and then began clattering down relentlessly since February.

With the noise and the clamour it has been difficult to make sense of it, to keep track and to understand the hatred and lack of compassion. It is almost scary that so many fans cannot see how damaging Rangers' demise is to the game in general.

Whether you like them or not they are important. Along with Celtic they are the engine that drives our game.

But the dislike hasn't been confined to the cheap seats. Other directors and chairmen have also relished watching Rangers fail and then fall.

Yet they should have known better and despite the voices of reason saying be careful what you wish for those clubs who have sounded off about sporting integrity will now have to be true to their own word.

If they have been listening to their fans, as a number of them claim, then they won't allow a newco into the SPL.

But let's just see if, when the time comes to vote, enough of them keep their hands down when asked if they want a reformed Rangers back in.

And they'll have to do this quickly because fans will need to know which teams will be in which divisions before buying season tickets. The SPL and SFL will produce their fixtures on Monday and although Rangers will be found in the top-flight schedule it remains to be seen if they'll actually be playing there.

But can the SPL do without Rangers and their supporters? They may have been suggesting they can but it will not prosper without Rangers and this is what all the chairmen, despite their bravado, will have to consider.

It was easy, and also foolish, to be bold when Duff and Phelps suggested HMRC had hinted they might accept the CVA but now the moment of truth has arrived for these clubs. And what will force the issue? Pressure from fans or pressure from banks? Of course, they could let them back in while insisting the new club has to accept penalties for the behaviour of the old, especially if the SPL enquiry finds Rangers guilty of issuing players dual contracts with their EBTs.

Also, the SFA have still to work out what sanction to impose on the current Rangers who succeeded in getting a 12-month signing ban overturned in the Court of Session. The SFA will demand the new sanction be inherited by the newco but it seems to me more than a few on one side of this saga are in danger of becoming a little vindictive.

GUILTY Of course Rangers are guilty of shaming the game and they accept they have to be punished. But how many more times must they be kicked? Despite the baying mob and their crazy notion that Rangers should be shunned because they are cheats the fact is this club and these fans have themselves been cheated. If there is anything in their DNA make up that's irrational or wrong it is their love of their club and this game.

Get over the mock outrage and come down from the moral high ground.

Few fans of any club have any right to be up there in any case but now, as Scottish football arrives at a crossroads let's try to think straight. How about cutting Rangers some slack and doing the game a turn at the same time?

A colleague of mine is listed as a fugitive by Interpol over a simple business dispute, which involved a company that he is a director of and was nothing to do with him personally. I personally don't hold Interpol in a high regard.

there not all bad ratko mladic was on their list as well.

we just need to figure out where our guy figures on the scale.

now I am in England so have not seen the record but its got two very good articles in it on our plight.

mind you I barely buy it anyway because of an issue I had with them 10 years back.

It's not D & P or Green that are doing this to us though.

 

NOBODY would have got a CVA through.

 

Therefore we can blame this on Whyte and Murray and the old board. It was their actions or inactions which put us here.

 

So, given we were always going to end up here, someone was going to Newco us and probably make some money.

 

Slating Green for it is a bit silly since there were no other credible bidders.

well somebody's buying the d&p mantra at least.

unfortunately many of our promising youths may take the opportunity to get away from jimmy Sinclair as well.

is it perhaps more a case of persuing the cash?

a cva is considered full settlement is it not?

weren't Interpol after whyte at one time.

it would be horrible to see money that should be going into rangers going to green.

will we be back slapping the protagonists when naisy, greigs, Davis and boca walk for free. when alouko goes elsewhere?

oh and regardless the jela money's gone and we may not be allowed back in the league if we don't pay for him in full.

meaning we lost money on jelavic. probably the easiest player to turn a profit on In recent history.

people need to get their heads round our situation.

Somebodies not telling the whole truth in all this mess and for me the finger keeps pointing to D&P they are the one constant in all this mess as others have come and gone. Time will tell I hope.

got to agree. d&p have much to answer for.

if you add green to the list of people wrongly informed by them. it now encompases every bidder.

Q & A with Green from todays Record

Your reaction to HMRC blocking CVA?

It is very disappointing. I hadn’t spoken to HMRC directly but what I do know is Duff and Phelps had various discussions with them over the past few months and I had no reason to doubt what they told me.

To read in Paul Clark’s statement today that HMRC are saying this is a policy decision – is it a policy from HMRC that came out this morning?

If this has always been their policy why didn’t they tell us this in February or March and save a lot of money and time?

And you are saying they didn’t tell you that?

There was a meeting set up for Monday at 2 o’clock, between Deloitte and HMRC. It was cancelled.

By whom?

By HMRC.

Are you saying you didn’t see this coming today?

Not at all. If we had known this in March – and forget about the effect that it’s had on Duff & Phelps – then the minute Bill Miller withdrew and we became preferred bidder we would’ve gone down the newco route. I spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on fees for professionals for a deal that could never happen.

But people have said that this was always HMRC’s policy. Are you really saying you never got that feedback?

No. Not at all.

You are now being seen as the guy who took Rangers into liquidation or who didn’t do enough to keep them out?

Neither of those things are fair. What I’ve said consistently is that the approval of the CVA would be purely down to HMRC and Ticketus.

What I have said throughout the process – because information fed back to me has always been that we’re talking to HMRC, they haven’t turned it down, so I had to be encouraged – was that I was not in control of that. HMRC have confirmed to Duff & Phelps they would vote in favour.

You can’t downplay the significance of today, it’s a momentous day for Rangers?

I said last week I thought next Thursday, ie this Thursday, was the most important day in Rangers’ history.

But you didn’t even make it to Thursday?

No. Could HMRC change their mind again and at the CVA meeting on Thursday? I would urge everyone to lobby to see if we can get this ridiculous decision overturned because it cannot be in the best interest of taxpayers. Cannot be.

HMRC statement talks about them pursuing previous owners?

My understanding, and I’m not a lawyer, is that going down this route preserves the position they can go after previous owners. But if pursuing previous owners by this mechanism destroys a lot of the hopes and aspirations of the fans, the club and the people associated with it, then my answer would be pursue them through the courts in a different manner, not force this on them.

I understand the logic of not doing deals with people who have failed to pay tax and have made these problems but that is not my group.

We haven’t failed to pay tax. I would understand this decision if Whyte was here or if Murray was here, who initiated the original problem.

Some of your weekend comments about signing targets and a £30million share issue could have antagonised HMRC and blown any chances of delivering CVA?

Then HMRC are stupid if they think that. If I wanted to go and sign Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi and pay them the salaries they get paid, 50 per cent of what I pay them goes back on PAYE so that could be the best news HMRC could have.

They would recoup PAYE and NIC at huge levels. Or we can play non-league football paying £300 every week to players who don’t pay 60 per cent tax.

You are certain you have a binding agreement for an asset sale?

We said consistently throughout that in the event of the CVA being rejected the contract would automatically default into an asset purchase.

Nothing has changed as far as we are concerned. The contract is a binding contract between both parties and this is not a situation where someone can come in now and do another deal. As far as we are concerned we have a binding contract.

So others can’t come in and challenge that?

If someone wants to challenge then my answer is I was criticised weeks ago because no one had ever heard of me, I came in at the last minute, I had appeared from nowhere. Well now people are saying have I got the chance to bid.

But everyone had the chance to bid for this company from February 14 until May 13 when I was given exclusivity, whether it was Blue Knights, Bill Miller, Uncle Tom Cobley or a host of other people who had approached the administrator and no one had put out a credible deal.

Some smart guy might want to come along but all that does is put the fans in limbo again. As far as we’re concerned we have a binding contract with Duff & Phelps.

Three-year European ban as a newco – what does that do for your projections?

We knew what the consequences were and what the opportunities were. If the CVA does fail on Thursday, and it is looking as if it will on HMRC’s current position, then we are not even in the SPL. Forget about playing in Europe we might not even be playing in Glasgow!

When will you start the moves to get into the SFA and SPL?

I have spoken to the SPL and the SFA today and meetings have been set up so those talks are ongoing.

People say the club should take its punishment and accept a drop to Division Three – is that an option or will you apply to SPL?

You would need approval for Division Three and there wouldn’t even be a guarantee of that. My view is anyone who creates a crime like this club did has to have punishment. Whether it’s my backside that gets kicked or someone else’s is an issue but unfortunately it’s mine that’s here and the others have disappeared. So we have to take some punishment.

Will you now lobby other clubs ahead of newco vote?

It’s important that while we are competitors on the field we need to be unified in the product, because the value of the SPL in terms of its image and its marketing rights is not to have a disparate group of people who aren’t prepared to work together.

You could agree to do away with the 11-1 vote to get clubs onside with you?

If the CVA gets rejected then one minute later we won’t be a member of the SPL. And therefore there can’t be an 11-1 vote because they would only have 11 members of the club. So that vote would occur without us.

Player contracts – they can all leave for free under TUPE regulations?

We would expect that all of the employees including the players would transfer into newco.

Can you be sure of that?

No. You can’t be sure. Someone may decide they don’t want to be part of the newco. But at that point they would be in breach of contract.

Is it true you lost a major investor at the weekend and you don’t have money to fund the club once you get control?

Let’s stop these rumours running around. Last week it was said I didn’t have any money to buy the club, I was using season-ticket money. Then I explained I had paid the administrators the money required in the contract, how could I have done that when I haven’t even put season tickets up for sale? The next thing being said is that when I buy it I don’t have money to run the club. In a month’s time, when I’ve dealt with that myth, I’ll be accused of not having enough money to buy Lionel Messi. And when I buy Lionel Messi I won’t have enough money to put a rocket on the moon. Every time someone comes up with something it’s proved to be rubbish.

People see you as the villain of the piece today?

I didn’t expect to be getting it in the neck and I don’t accept that at any stage I’m the villain of the piece. If I wasn’t here there would be no one buying this club. All the bidders disappeared. But if there’s someone out there now who wants this club, then turn up, sign a cheque, we’ll go out the door and they can take over.

Sad day for Rangers?

“It’s a sad day for the club, for the fans … HMRC have got a lot to answer for.

greens here to make money. that money is in the spl.

the 3rd division will only happen if its forced on us.

He needs to stop making it personal GS and just give us the facts, we're not stupid we can put it all together with the sensational crap and mud-slinging.

perhaps. but leggo is a fan and writes as such.

he hates green and d&p for what they are doing to us. I can't blame him myself.

Style does matter - I know nothing at all about whether Green is genuine or a crook. I'd love someone to show me one way or the other. But someone going on about grubby money grabbing Green is not very persuasive.

greens only in it for the money and like whyte that makes him a danger.

the fact green can't pretend to be a fan just makes him more honest about the money part.

many people cling to the hope that he can't make money unless he makes us healthy but that's not true at all I am afraid.

I can't pretend to know what green pla.s but its as likely to be what leggo says as it is raising 100 million as mooted by green.

green clealy upsetts leggo as a rangers fan. that I can personally empathise with.

He does get stuff right GS but anyone can go on a rant and hit the mark occasionally.

its more than occasional though and he's not exactly making easy predictions.

leggo gets a lot of stuff right. it would be foolish to write of everything he says. no matter what style he writes in.

Heard from where you can't come on and spout statements willy nilly to suit your agenda. Where's your heros on their white chargers surely TBK can scrap together enough money to step in, but then I heard yesterday they were arguing over who's round it was at lunchtime (see what I did there).

I can't really say and as such I understand if you don't believe me.

do you think others might come in with a decent bid if allowed and take the club on .

still at least two interested parties.

surely he has at least the 5.5.

I find it hard to believe even d&p could get it that badly wrong.

I will say this yesterday I heard green had been telling all sorts of lies to potential investors about who was putting what in.

it could be unraveling for him.

So how did Whyte get his hands on us?

 

That's got nothing to do with TBT, you really have to take the blinkers off GS and look at the big picture going back over a decade and more.

 

It's not hard to see why we are in debt, if you take out loans don't pay them back and don't pay your PAYE/NI. Should be a short investigation for HMRC what's so hard about that to investigate in that case closed.

theres money missing for a start.

there's the fact whyte never I.tended us to survive.

there's the fact d&p have been in on it since day one.

etc etc.

the reasons sdm sold us have about as much relevance as the reasons marlboro sold us to hmrc.

unless sdm was in on the con.

might as well blame souness for bringing in sdm.

No one and I mean no one in this sorry affair has been above reproach, and includes The No Mark Knights.

your not wrong there.

The big tax case has no part to play in why we are here, are you serious.

in why we are being liquidated.

zero part in that. whyte took us from 14 million in debt to 48 million inside a year.

that's what will be being investigated.

He really does and I've thought that since I first heard his voice talking about Rangers. I sincerely hope we're wrong about him.

facts and green are like oil and water.

its frightening how bad he is everytime he opens his mouth.