Thinker

If you've just discovered the reverse jinx, keep doing it!

No.

Cedric!

Yaaas!

Hagi looks up for it.

That's a bit much mate. Take a deep breath, look at the league table, look at the Europa league group.

For what it's worth (probably not much) Antwerp are the lowest ranked team still in the competition (125th). https://www.footballseeding.com/uefa/club-ranking/2020-21/

It's a collector's item! £30 quid on ebay: Vintage 1950's FERGUZADE FREE SAMPLE Bottle from Strathmore Springs, Forfar!!! God know's what it's transformed into after so many years and it's slightly concerning that it's condition is listed as "Used". It certainly does have the colouration of a sample bottle.

May be a strong team, but they're a goal down already...

Fundamentally, I think this is what where I disagree with you. If booing is not productive, I don't see the point in booing. And when it comes specifically to Rangers, the way our players are performing at the moment, and with what's at stake, the thought of any fan doing anything that has even the remotest possibility of putting them off their game gives me the cold sweats.

You should probably take that argument up with Millwall FC as they released a statement suggesting that the crowd reaction has had an impact (as quoted previously). What on Earth does this have to do with people being working class? Plenty of working class people have no gripe with those players, and I daresay not everyone booing at The Den was working class. Banners are a very effective way for fans to direct their ire at a specific aspect of something (e.g. support the club, sack the spivs, or support the players, sack the manager). It's far more likely to strike home than booing and jeering. I agree that wearing a poppy isn't political, and long may it conttinue at the football. But some contemptible folk do try to claim otherwise and project political motives onto it. (Just look East). The argument seems to be that wearing an emblem of support for our war dead somehow implies that non-British casualties are unimportant. Which is nonsense. The same is true of taking the knee. The stated objective of the players doesn't include promoting any particular political ideology. No one is saying "only black lives matter". And it's not a question of these players educating themselves about the meaning of their actions - it's a question of accepting that they've just come to a different conclusion about what their actions mean than you have. It's not worth getting upset about. You should go and give the liberal lefties who actually want to smash the state or dismantle capitlaism a hard time - I'm sure professional athletes who drive to training in cars that cost more than my flat have no time for those fools either. Clearly, the players are running the risk of getting lumped in with the nutters, but you can't adequately convey the distinction by howling at them from a football terrace.

When Goldson stated on social media that he had no intention of making a political point by taking the knee, I see no reason to doubt him. I like him and I'm glad he's a Rangers player. I think he's a good, honest guy. I'm not sure I could say the same about di canio. (Especially as he has "il duce" tattooed in Latin on his arm).

I think we can all agree with that!

True. I suppose you could more easily compare it to a pre-match minute's silence to mark Remembrance Day. That might delay the kick-off, but again isn't something any reasonable person should boo.

Apologies. I don't read everything you post. I disagree about the banner. It would be a far clearer way to get the point across. I'm glad to hear you wouldn't boo our players. I agree that taking the knee should be cross-examined in a clear and unambiguous way. Certainly no negativity should be directed at the players who cleary have no intention of promoting far-left revolutionary politics.

Would you express that by booing players for wearing a poppy?

You're veering away from the points I'm trying to make here. Booing before kick-off will have a negative effect on the team and negative consequences for the club. That's because you can't effectively express your counter-argument to taking the knee by booing. To make a parallel: I fully support the wearing of poppies by players around remembrance day. Whilst you could debate the political nuances of this, anybody who would boo a player for wearing a poppy is wilfully misinterpreting what the display is intended to mean and is an embarassment to their club. Do you disagree with any of that?

We're there to support the team. Are you suggesting we should all sit quietly, as neutral observers without offering encouragment? Do you think the atmosphere the fans create has no impact? IMO, if the players (or anyone making a gesture or statement) tell you they aren't trying to make a political point I'd need a solid reason not to take them at face value. Yes, it's certainly a matter worth debating, but it's quite obviously too nuanced a question to respond to by booing from a terrace. If a fans group were to make a banner with a pithy slogan summarising their support for the team and anti-racism initiatives, but think taking the knee / BLM has become divisive, that would be fair enough. But does booing players who believe they're making a show of support for sufferers of discrimination send a message with a clear and unambiguous meaning?

Of course it effects the players. What's the point of being a supporter if support (or lack of) from the terraces makes no difference? I doubt it's a total conincidence that the match that triggered the furore ended as a home defeat to the managerless club at the bottom of the table. To quote Millwall FC's response: And the negative press is bound to effect sponsorship, player recruitment and player retention. How could it not? It's difficult to quantify "influence", but if you can come up with a method, the answer sure as hell wouldn't be "zero".

Juan Alegria?

Well, players can't keep taking the knee forever, that's for sure. But shouting our own players down - particularly those who genuinely care about the issue of racism - could clearly have a negative impact on their performance, our results, and potentially the destination of the title. And, just to reiterate, I genuinely don't believe the players intentions are controversial - they're being miscontrued. Connor Goldson (for example) is clearly not a communist or an anarchist. He's just a guy from humble beginnings who experienced racism first-hand on the way up, and is now attempting to use his celebrity to raise awareness of the issue. The disagreement here isn't that Goldson supports mad leftist policies that you find objectionable, it's merely that Goldson doesn't attach the same meaning to taking the knee that you do. It's a trivial, semiotic issue not worth upsetting anyone over. I don't think for a second you believe he's a bad guy, so why would you be okay with the idea of booing him? By all means, oppose and counter the people who actually hold the half-baked revolutionary ideas you object to. That's not the players though.

Really? It seems far more likely to me that the club involved will be forced to make a red-faced apology (as Millwall were), the supporters will be villified, and the resultant message will be a declaration of how important it is not to bend to this sort of thing. Which feeds into part two of the previous question: is booing likely to have a positive or negative influence on the match, the morale of the players, or the reputation of the club?

No I'm not making this about black players. I'm making it about players who notably and publicly support what they (possibly naively) see as a straight-forward campaign against racism. It seems to me that they genuinely feel strongly about the issue, and I have no reason to doubt that the the guys I mentioned above have experienced racism at some point in their lives. I don't think the point of disagreement here is the point the players are actually trying to make. It's reasonable to object to the puerile "smash the state", "defund the police" Communist/Anarchist stuff that you might see on a poster in a student hall window - but I'm certain the players don't believe they're promoting that. The point they're trying to make is simply "down with racism". As I said, you may think they have a simplistic view of things, but there's nothing bad in their intentions - which is surely what you should base any decision to take offence at something on. Is booing just before your team kick off likely to hasten the end of taking the knee, do you think? More importantly (to me at least) is it likely to have a positive or negative influence on the match, the morale of the players, or the reputation of the club?

It's one thing to disagree with the politics that have attached themselves to BLM; it's another to vociferously object to your own players making what they see as a non-poiitical gesture (no matter how ineffectual) right before kick off. If we were allowed into Ibrox this season is there a fan amongst us who could overlook all the joy that Tav, Goldson, Aribo, Bassey et al have given us and boo them? I hope not. Taking the knee has to stop eventually, and It's right that BLM should be questioned - sensibly, calmly and in a reasoned way. Well thought-out posts like Bill's and stewarty's add good points to the debate. Haranguing football players, either verbally at a match or on social media, just exacerbates the issue and turns the debate into a slagging match.

Arfield for me - though I accidentally clicked on Barasic...