Thinker

Couple of hairy moments. We're getting more opportunities to break though, but too much dithering when we do.

Hagi!

8 minutes ago, PoohBear said:

I think Roofe is fantastic but not sure this is right for him. Itten and Morelos have a physical presence that important. Delighted if I’m proven wrong.

If you've just discovered the reverse jinx, keep doing it!

1 hour ago, weebluedevil said:

Are we celtic in disguise

No.

Cedric!

Yaaas!

Hagi looks up for it.

Just now, CammyF said:

Feel good factor has now completely gone, get ready for the annual collapse? 

That's a bit much mate. Take a deep breath, look at the league table, look at the Europa league group.

For what it's worth (probably not much) Antwerp are the lowest ranked team still in the competition (125th).

https://www.footballseeding.com/uefa/club-ranking/2020-21/

42 minutes ago, Uilleam said:

Well, Provo would be a Ferguzade (sic) man, of that I am sure.

 

As far as I can see the Forfar brewed panacea is no longer available. 

 

It's a collector's item! £30 quid on ebay:

Vintage 1950's FERGUZADE FREE SAMPLE Bottle from Strathmore Springs, Forfar!!!

God know's what it's transformed into after so many years and it's slightly concerning that it's condition is listed as "Used". It certainly does have the colouration of a sample bottle.

44 minutes ago, DMAA said:

Benfica have gone with their strongest 11. Would be a bit disappointing to lose out narrowly by putting out a weaker team when our competitors aren’t doing the same. Finishing 2nd means losing out on half a million or so and getting a very hard draw in the next round.

May be a strong team, but they're a goal down already...

21 minutes ago, ChelseaBoy said:

Booing may not be productive but i repeat it is often all the fans have. 

Fundamentally, I think this is what where I disagree with you. If booing is not productive, I don't see the point in booing.

And when it comes specifically to Rangers, the way our players are performing at the moment, and with what's at stake, the thought of any fan doing anything that has even the remotest possibility of putting them off their game gives me the cold sweats.

1 hour ago, ChelseaBoy said:

Take a look at Millwall's history sometime and you will see that disturbance on the field, off the field and on the terraces has had minimal effect over the last 100 years. If you equate booing by around 500 out of 2k supporters at a match led to Millwall losing the game, then i'm sure the manager will have words with those players. Even the thickest of players should realise people are booing what taking the knee stands for and who it is primarily aimed at not the players themselves.  

You should probably take that argument up with Millwall FC as they released a statement suggesting that the crowd reaction has had an impact (as quoted previously).

1 hour ago, ChelseaBoy said:

Again you miss the point - what other means has working class punters got to show their disapproval? Making pithy banners isn't going to cut it. Really? 

 

Maybe said players should educate themselves on the wider aims of BLM. If they then decide that yes, i do support defunding the police, the end to familial life as we know it, the smashing of capitalism and that all white people are inherently racist - then then can kneel all they want and not worry about booing. 

What on Earth does this have to do with people being working class? Plenty of working class people have no gripe with those players, and I daresay not everyone booing at The Den was working class. Banners are a very effective way for fans to direct their ire at a specific aspect of something (e.g. support the club, sack the spivs, or support the players, sack the manager). It's far more likely to strike home than booing and jeering.

1 hour ago, ChelseaBoy said:

What political nuances. They are worn to remember the British dead of conflict around the world, primarily the two world wars. 

 

Do not confuse poppy wearing with a overtly political organisation like BLM - just don't go there.

I agree that wearing a poppy isn't political, and long may it conttinue at the football. But some contemptible folk do try to claim otherwise and project political motives onto it. (Just look East). The argument seems to be that wearing an emblem of support for our war dead somehow implies that non-British casualties are unimportant. Which is nonsense. The same is true of taking the knee. The stated objective of the players doesn't include promoting any particular political ideology. No one is saying "only black lives matter". And it's not a question of these players educating themselves about the meaning of their actions - it's a question of accepting that they've just come to a different conclusion about what their actions mean than you have. It's not worth getting upset about. You should go and give the liberal lefties who actually want to smash the state or dismantle capitlaism a hard time - I'm sure professional athletes who drive to training in cars that cost more than my flat have no time for those fools either. Clearly, the players are running the risk of getting lumped in with the nutters, but you can't adequately convey the distinction by howling at them from a football terrace.

2 hours ago, Gonzo79 said:

Did you say the same about DiCanio and far-right ideology when he saluted the Lazio fans (he stated at the time it's a Roman salute and not a Nazi salute)?

When Goldson stated on social media that he had no intention of making a political point by taking the knee, I see no reason to doubt him. I like him and I'm glad he's a Rangers player. I think he's a good, honest guy.

I'm not sure I could say the same about di canio. (Especially as he has "il duce" tattooed in Latin on his arm).

1 minute ago, Scott7 said:

 

I don’t believe in booing anything except celtic running out of the tunnel. That luxury has been denied for a good number of years since the practice began of both teams daundering out together.

I think we can all agree with that!

8 minutes ago, Scott7 said:

Good point but no. I argue my way out of that by saying kneeling and delaying the start of the match is intrusive. A poppy image on a shirt is not, though whether it should be is a different argument.

True. I suppose you could more easily compare it to a pre-match minute's silence to mark Remembrance Day. That might delay the kick-off, but again isn't something any reasonable person should boo.

12 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

No.

 

I did ask you previously what alternative course of action the Millwall fans should have taken but you didn't respond (other than a later comment about a banner - which I doubt would make any difference).

Apologies. I don't read everything you post. I disagree about the banner. It would be a far clearer way to get the point across.

12 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

Your focus seems to mainly be on the booing but the focus should be on taking the knee and why it provoked such a response (I wouldn't boo it, just to clarify). 

I'm glad to hear you wouldn't boo our players. I agree that taking the knee should be cross-examined in a clear and unambiguous way. Certainly no negativity should be directed at the players who cleary have no intention of promoting far-left revolutionary politics.

3 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

Yes.  I'd take all the poppy/remembrance stuff out of football too.

Would you express that by booing players for wearing a poppy?

14 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

We're there to support and assist the team playing a football match.  If I wanted to support the BLM movement, I'd have attended their marches.  I support anti-discrimination initiatives by not discriminating.

 

It's a shame the same can't be said about the songs we've had to bin.

 

Supporters - do what you're told.

Players - guide us in the ways of the world.

You're veering away from the points I'm trying to make here. Booing before kick-off will have a negative effect on the team and negative consequences for the club. That's because you can't effectively express your counter-argument to taking the knee by booing.

To make a parallel: I fully support the wearing of poppies by players around remembrance day. Whilst you could debate the political nuances of this, anybody who would boo a player for wearing a poppy is wilfully misinterpreting what the display is intended to mean and is an embarassment to their club. Do you disagree with any of that?

29 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

I was always under the impression it was a football match we were attending.  Fans are told to keep politics, religion and the like out of it, so why can't the players?

 

The main difference of opinion on taking the knee seems to be about whether it's a political act or not.  

 

In my opinion, all societal issues like this are political.  That's why we're all here debating it.

We're there to support the team. Are you suggesting we should all sit quietly, as neutral observers without offering encouragment? Do you think the atmosphere the fans create has no impact?

IMO, if the players (or anyone making a gesture or statement) tell you they aren't trying to make a political point I'd need a solid reason not to take them at face value.

Yes, it's certainly a matter worth debating, but it's quite obviously too nuanced a question to respond to by booing from a terrace. If a fans group were to make a banner with a pithy slogan summarising their support for the team and anti-racism initiatives, but think taking the knee / BLM has become divisive, that would be fair enough. But does booing players who believe they're making a show of support for sufferers of discrimination send a message with a clear and unambiguous meaning?

6 hours ago, ChelseaBoy said:

It will have zero influence on a) the match, b) the morale of the players or the long term reputation of the club - i'd suggest that actions of those in the boardrooms at many clubs up and down the country over the years have done much more harm to the clubs than working class fans booing some virtual signalling that the football authorities/MSM/NGOs think they ought to witness.

 

 

Of course it effects the players. What's the point of being a supporter if support (or lack of) from the terraces makes no difference? I doubt it's a total conincidence that the match that triggered the furore ended as a home defeat to the managerless club at the bottom of the table.

To quote Millwall FC's response:

Quote

"The impact of such incidents is felt not just by the players and management, but by those who work throughout the club and in its Academy and Community Trust, where so many staff and volunteers continue passionate endeavours to enhance Millwall's reputation day after day, year after year.

And the negative press is bound to effect sponsorship, player recruitment and player retention. How could it not? It's difficult to quantify "influence", but if you can come up with a method, the answer sure as hell wouldn't be "zero".

Juan Alegria?

1 minute ago, Bill said:

Wait and see. This bullying will only stretch so far.

Well, players can't keep taking the knee forever, that's for sure. But shouting our own players down - particularly those who genuinely care about the issue of racism - could clearly have a negative impact on their performance, our results, and potentially the destination of the title.

And, just to reiterate, I genuinely don't believe the players intentions are controversial - they're being miscontrued. Connor Goldson (for example) is clearly not a communist or an anarchist. He's just a guy from humble beginnings who experienced racism first-hand on the way up, and is now attempting to use his celebrity to raise awareness of the issue. The disagreement here isn't that Goldson supports mad leftist policies that you find objectionable, it's merely that Goldson doesn't attach the same meaning to taking the knee that you do. It's a trivial, semiotic issue not worth upsetting anyone over. I don't think for a second you believe he's a bad guy, so why would you be okay with the idea of booing him?

By all means, oppose and counter the people who actually hold the half-baked revolutionary ideas you object to. That's not the players though.

17 minutes ago, Bill said:

Yes, very much so. The TV companies and their dependent football authorities who arrange and sanction knee-taking, will drop it like a hot potato as soon as it no longer provides the sanitised virtue-signalling platform they crave.

Really? It seems far more likely to me that the club involved will be forced to make a red-faced apology (as Millwall were), the supporters will be villified, and the resultant message will be a declaration of how important it is not to bend to this sort of thing.

Which feeds into part two of the previous question: is booing likely to have a positive or negative influence on the match, the morale of the players, or the reputation of the club?

3 hours ago, ChelseaBoy said:

They were not booing the players for being black or black people in general, its the fake symbolism without any challenge and the wider aims that BLM represent. Most of the players don't even know anything about why they are doing it, and this whole conformity of the mindless who challenge nothing must stop as it has in other sports. 

 

This is not about the black players and nobody has made it so until your post. 

 

Think about why they are continuing to do this in football and why should people in the stand who have paid to just watch a football match without any of the overt political messaging and grandstanding that is going on, again with only minimal challenge about BLM complete agenda. 

No I'm not making this about black players. I'm making it about players who notably and publicly support what they (possibly naively) see as a straight-forward campaign against racism. It seems to me that they genuinely feel strongly about the issue, and I have no reason to doubt that the the guys I mentioned above have experienced racism at some point in their lives.

I don't think the point of disagreement here is the point the players are actually trying to make. It's reasonable to object to the puerile "smash the state", "defund the police" Communist/Anarchist stuff that you might see on a poster in a student hall window - but I'm certain the players don't believe they're promoting that. The point they're trying to make is simply "down with racism". As I said, you may think they have a simplistic view of things, but there's nothing bad in their intentions - which is surely what you should base any decision to take offence at something on.

Is booing just before your team kick off likely to hasten the end of taking the knee, do you think? More importantly (to me at least) is it likely to have a positive or negative influence on the match, the morale of the players, or the reputation of the club?