Davie P

Not sure if anyone has watched it on RTV, but here is my observations:

1. Rangers dominated the game, but didn't take their chances (primarily Waghorn, who's finishing was/is abysmal). Looked like a 4 2 3 1 formation with a high press. Good energy from the players considering this is their second kick around and hopefully we get it altogether by the time of the first leg.

2. Wes made a good save from a free kick, but didn't have much to do for the rest of the time.

3. Tav, good going forward, not under any real pressure.

4. McCrorie, good young player, think he will probably go out on loan again this season.

5. Cardosa - Bossed the game, strong in the tackle and has a good outlet ball.

6. Wallace - had some good moments but probably still attempting to get his match fitness back

7. Jack - Didn't waste a pass, think that this may be one of our best bits of business in this transfer window.

8. Holt - Played alongside Jack, and was his normal busy self. Can't recall any moments of brilliance, but equally can't remember too many mistakes!

9. Miller - Full of energy, but just adds nothing to the team out wide.

10. Kranjcar - less eye catching than against Coleraine, but still some moments of sublime skill. Just not sure that the fitness is going to be fully recoverable. Obviously very harsh observation after only 2 bounce matches and hope I am wrong.

11. Dalcio - Flattered to deceive, but decent overall and with moments of good skill, but seem to recall him giving the ball away fairly often.

12. Waghorn - Would rather play Miller down the middle, and may do so once Candeias (spelling?) comes into the team. I think Waghorn is for the off when Herrera arrives, just can't see how he would make that team.

Won't list all of the subs, but thought Rossiter and McKay (in particular) did quite well when they came on. McKay was looking for the ball and can provide the creativity that this team requires if we don't have a Kranjcar. My guess is that Rossiter will play with Jack as one of the two holding midfielders once the serious stuff starts.

I wouldn't read too much into a bounce match and have to consider the level of the opposition, but the team appears to be gelling and understanding Pedro's instructions. Will be interesting to see where Pena and Dorrans fit into the picture, if or when they arrive.

Garner may not have been used properly but neither is he good enough to warrant changing the system to accommodate him.

Ultimately, he's just a pretty ordinary player at best.

Just makes his signing all the more baffling. I could not imagine a player less suited to 4-3-3 than Garner, and yet that was Warburton's only system that he would consider. I could see Garner doing a job for a Mick McCarthy long ball 4-4-2 team but I have never seen a player more bewildered in how to play the lone striker role. Very strange...

Well, so much for the rumour surrounding Sports Direct being the kit sponsor in return for Rangers getting a bigger share of the profits! Still hope we can sort something out, we have a generation of supporters who are missing out on that special feeling of putting on the replica kits.

Coincidentally, I was listening to the Big Interview podcast last night. Graham Hunter was chatting to Bennie McCarthy, who mentioned that in his Porto playing days, Mourinho used to routinely send Carvahlo home from training as he was frequently dopey and just unable to get his mind around the training routines. However, Carvalho would be the first name on the team sheet every week, and was always a 7 (or above) out of 10. Whereas Bennie was disliked by the Celta Vigo coach Fernandes, but put every effort into training despite knowing that he was not going to be played in the La Liga matches. Mourinho spotted McCarthy at an open Celta training session and came back for 5 consecutive days, liked Bennie's attitude and brought him across to Porto on loan at 25% of his Celta wages. Forrester could take a leaf out of McCarthy's book, and put the effort in, either with the intention of changing Pedro's mind, or perhaps been scouted by another club. If he is seen to be a poor trainer with a bad attitude and out on the piss every night, he is definitely not doing himself any favours, with Pedro or future employees!

We wasted much of his ability throughout the season while playing 4-3-3, but MW's "darlings" McKay and Waghorn could not be dispossessed despite not reaping producing enough goods. IMHO, Garner, Dodoo and Forrester, as well as MOH were VERY under-used throughout the season. Garner needed another striker about him to work with and PC actually stated that he'd change our attacking style to get the best out of him. That should tell us a few things - if we go by the much lauded tactical approach of PC?!

 

Garner would sure have added some more bite to our attack next season and you would have to hope that a) Herrera and Morelos will click from the off and, first and foremost b) we get their work permits and visas before the 19th. Else we end up with Miller, Waghorn and Dodoo as our prime attackers for the EL first quali round.

I agree with much of what you have said, but from memory, I think that McKay provided the most 'chances created' over the course of the season. Unfortunately, his assists are always going to be low, when you have Garner and Waghorn as strike partners, neither of whom could be defined as regular goal scorers. I think there is a real player in McKay and hope that we don't lose him now, only to see him become the finished article at another club. With better players around him, we could just yet see him fulfil his potential.

Straight out on loan again this coming season, I would imagine.

Before we have a go at the jury, look at the amateur manner in which the 'investigation' was carried out. There was never any danger of Whyte being found guilty, amateur investigations (search warrant at Duff and Phelps) and the court case being to big for the prosecutor appointed. Absolutely disgusted. If the 'common sense' approach (per the HMRC appeal) was applied, Whyte would be locked up now.

We have had 5 years of being trod on by all and sundry due to the actions of Whyte (and make no mistake, the asset strip was the plan from day 1), and we get a joke of a prosecution. For the first time in ages we have had a really good vibe surrounding the club, and this has just deflated that mood for me.

Is this a genuinely well connected ITK website or just gossip retailers? Reason for saying that is that they announced Dalcio and Cardosa as done deals yesterday. I will read anything Rangers related outside of the MSM, but would be interested if they really do have some inside scope.

From what I read while following the trial Johnston and the others were made out to be extending Bains contract and inserting conditions into Walters without Murray being made aware. The point seemed to be that Murray had other larger problems to deal with and left the board to get on with things.

Was AJ an executive or non-executive Chairman. if the latter, would he even have had the authority to agree the Bain/McCoist deals, without Murray's nod and a wink?

Don't want to get done for contempt of court, but did nobody see Donald Findlay's summing up of his defence case in the Whyte trial? Let's just say it didn't paint AJ in a good light at all. Claim was that he was incompetent, no suggestion of any criminaltiy but still..

 

I wouldn't read too much into that mate, common legal practice to muddy the waters as much as possible. From memory, AJ advised Murray not to sell the club to Whyte but Murray was 'encouraged' to sell by the bank. DF and DM would still have a strong relationship, so DF is looking to apportion the blame and not have it all fall at DM's door, while still attempting to get his gobshite client off the charge.

 

Would love to see AJ having an involvement with the club. Anyone know if he is still involved with the American Sports agency?

Has there been any improvements made for the disabled supporters yet?

Board Meeting Summary – 23rd May 2017

The Club 1872 Board met on 23rd May 2017. There were no apologies.

Sub-groups

Laura Fawkes and Joanne Percival gave an update on their activities since being reappointed as Directors. They have organised a series of meetings to establish sub-groups, as per the update that went out to members on Monday 22nd May. All Directors were in agreement that while the purpose of these groups will serve to improve the functioning and growth of the organisation, they should also encourage member engagement. This is a priority for Club 1872. James advised that the constitution, which will be sent out to members for consultation, will detail proposals on how sub-groups will be formed. Laura and Joanne have identified a number of areas of the organisation’s functioning which require immediate attention, including communication. Other areas such as Project planning and delivery are also being looked at. Sub-groups for these and other areas of the organisation’s functioning will be addressed over the coming days and weeks. For the time being, sub-groups will have an informal structure. Ultimately members will decide on the format of sub-groups through consultation and voting on the constitution.

Constitution

James went on to advise that a key function of the constitution will be to increase member engagement, and that it will also focus on mechanisms to address some of the issues that have proven difficult in recent months in terms of Director behaviour.

The consultation on the proposed constitution will take approximately one month. Following publication of the proposed constitution, members will be given a period of approximately two weeks to review the proposal before a series of meetings will begin. These will take place over a period of approximately two weeks. These will allow members opportunities to ask questions, raise concerns and put forward ideas about the proposal. Throughout the consultation period, members will be encouraged to send feedback via a dedicated email address, which will be put out with the proposal. This full and robust consultation period will be followed by a poll of members to determine the constitution they want. We have already contacted members who’ve expressed an interest in volunteering to assist with the consultation.

Membership drive/paper sign-ups

Despite a decision being made at the last Board meeting (and subsequently communicated to members) to send the art work for sign-up forms to a printer, this was not taken forward. Laura and Joanne will now deal with this. The art work has been requested from the person who was dealing with this previously, but has not yet been received. Laura and Joanne will contact members who previously responded to the skills audit in relation to graphic design/marketing. Club 1872 is limited in terms of its budget for this kind of thing, but many members are keen to assist. Laura and Joanne have been in touch with members who are willing to act as Club 1872 reps at a variety of suggested events over the coming months. While paper sign-up forms would be ideal for many of these events, the option of getting people signed up electronically is also available and will be utilised.

Budget

The Board went on to discuss the costs involved in running Club 1872 and whether the admin budget needs to be increased. The Board also discussed whether an organisation of this size requires professional management. This would require an increase in admin spending. The Board agreed that the demands placed on volunteers are extreme and that the workload can be difficult to manage. The idea of management staff will be investigated in terms of need, cost, etc. Any decision on increased spending would be put to members.

Communication with members/member engagement

Stewart Robertson had previously agreed to have weekly conference calls with the Club 1872 Board as well as the monthly meetings that had been taking place up until March 2017. This was not taken forward in recent weeks. Joanne and Laura have now arranged a meeting with Stewart. This will take place next week, and a summary of the discussion will be sent to members. When Joanne and Laura met with Stewart in March, he agreed to attend a meeting with Club 1872 members. This was not taken forward during the time Laura and Joanne were not in position as Directors. This will be discussed with Stewart again next week and a date confirmed to members in due course.

The Board discussed the importance of making it as easy as possible for members to engage with Club 1872 and its functioning. One area where improvements could be made is member polls. Laura will contact the webmaster to discuss ways to make it easier for members to be directed to the area of the website on which votes are cast.

Elections

The Board discussed the timing of the next Club 1872 elections. It was agreed to start preparing for elections now. Supporters Direct will be contacted to ascertain whether they will oversee the process, to check their availability and request their thoughts on the timescale of the vetting process.

Safety of member donations

Given the level of funds currently held in Club 1872’s bank accounts, it was agreed to seek advice from the CIC Regulator and others on steps we can take to ensure the security of member funds. It was recognised that with over £1m on deposit the responsibility of ensuring the integrity of the monies donated by members required careful consideration and discussion with those experienced in dealing with similar situations. Club 1872 needs to ensure the monies can be accessed quickly when opportunities arise but it was felt that substantial transfers should require greater formality.

AOB

Laura advised that season tickets for Erskine veterans had been renewed earlier that day.

Communication with the Crowne Plaza hotel has been ongoing with regard to the Club 1872 inaugural dinner, and arrangements will be finalised in the coming days. Joanne and Laura have arranged a meeting with a member who will assist in the planning of this event and advise on other issues relating to advertising, marketing, etc.

The date of the next Board meeting will be agreed via email and communicated to members in due course.

Are Laura and Joanne doing everything? Seems like nothing happened during their absence. What were the remaining board members doing during this period?

It's a strange one, Traynor being paid for PR and doing zilch.

 

Actually looks as if he is being paid to keep quiet !!

That's the question isn't it. What is Traynor's mandate, because it sure as hell is not defend the club or the support! When was his last release - the aftermath of the cup final?

agree with all that davieP other than the c's for bates and beerman, handling the stress of the situation alone as well as they did should get a B. Most matches they have played they have been in the top performers .

Aye, probably a wee bit harsh on them, and perhaps comparing them to titans of our past teams. I am just not sure that they are going to kick on and take us to the next level, but this will not be the first time that I hope to be proven wrong!

After the SC 2016 semi-final, we all entered the season believing that there was very little gap (if any) between the Championship and the Premier League. Even after losing the final to Hibs (another Championship team) we blamed that on the delay between the season ending and the cup final. (OK, we also blamed the defence as well!) However, I think that the majority of fans expected that we would have a decent season and if not win the league, at least put up a strong showing. Sadly from our very first match against Hamilton, it was clear that we had underestimated the opposition and overestimated the abilities of MW, DW and the BITB to acquire quality players. As has been said above, we don't know the extent of the allocations allowed by King and Co, but when you are shopping in the bottom rung of English football for the core of your team, that is the type of performances that can be expected.

Foderingham - B. I liken him to a typical African goalkeeper, making expansive showy saves, but often caught out from distance. However, I do think that over the season, he was one of the better players. (Sell if we can get a decent offer).

Tavernier - D. Expected much more from him. He was being rated as a 2m pound player in the Championship, but probably needs to play as a wingback in order to provide the same threat going forward without leaving the defence exposed. His final ball generally was awful, but we did score a few from his crosses, so perhaps a work in progress. (Not certain as to whether we stick or twist?)

Kiernan - F. Absolute and total dud. His incriminating photos of MW are no longer of any use, now that we are under new management! Perhaps Forest will come calling... (Get rid)

Danny Wilson - D. Really rated this boy when he came onto the scene and played next to DW, however, I think that early move to Liverpool set him back a few years. He does have a decent passing range and in a back three may be less exposed for his lack of physicality. (Keep, but will need to up his game substantially to get a place amongst the first team)

Hill - B. I was massively underwhelmed when we signed him, as I felt that he was finished at QPR, however, he was a pleasant surprise and improved as the season went on. I did vote for him as our player of the year, which to be fair was around the time of his goal against Celtic, so perhaps the rose coloured glasses came to the fore, but generally, he never let us down.

Sendoros - F. I think this was the signing that probably signed MW's death warrant with King. If he was being paid 1k per week, he was still robbing us blind. Again, you would question why the BITB would possibly recommend him when he was finished at Arsenal (probably 5 years before joining us) and was living on his reputation. You would have thought that the BITB would be aware of that, but perhaps there was an agency that needed supporting?

Bates - C. He did surprise me with his performances as his matches at u20 had been slightly underwhelming to say the least. Whole hearted, good in the air, and would expect that he will remain in the squad for next season.

Aidan Wilson - B. Performed well in both of his matches and would expect that he will be in or around next seasons squad. Looks solid. Still only 18, so good future ahead of him.

Wallace - D. I really had high hopes for Wallace and thought that he was Scotland's best left back whilst in the Championship. However, again, a real disappointment. The partnership with McKay just didn't work this season and perhaps he had been feeling the injury for a while. I am and always will be grateful for those players that stuck with us throughout the journey, however, at some stage, we will need to look at strengthening throughout. LB is probably not as urgent need for an upgrade as some other positions. Hopefully, following surgery, he is playing pain free and can get back to his best form. Keep

Beerman - C. Love the youngsters coming through and I thought at times Beerman did well. However he looks like a re-cycled winger who is being forced into a LB position as an emergency. As an 18 year old, he can only grow further into the role, carries an attacking threat (see winger comment) but at times was a bit naïve in his defending. Safety first!

Holt - C. Had his moments and was probably better as a defensive midfielder doing his best Kante impression. I cant recall Holt scoring and or creating too much over the course of the season and probably a squad player for next season due to his versatility. Keep

Halliday - E. Like everyone, we always want the home town boy to do well and live the dream on behalf of all of us. He did well in the Championship as a re-treaded defensive midfielder but the Premier seems a step too far. Was caught in possession in every match that I can recall, was too slow to get back into the DM position when we lost possession and it cost us dearly. I hope that he joins a decent club and maybe goes back into a left sided position, but just cannot play the role expected of him at higher levels. (Sell)

Windass - D. Not sure if his preference is for modelling or playing football, but did not seem that interested when ever he was fit. Certainly not the future star that MW had spoken about when we signed him from AS. When a player gestures at the crowd (and it must be difficult when your own support is having a moan) it becomes very difficult to win us back. Only way to do that is with performances and to paraphrase Pedro, he has moments in a match when he is an 8, other times he is lucky to get a 3! Just no consistency at this level. I would probably keep, but warn him about his attitude. Keep

Barton - F. Was never fit, having spent the entire pre-season commenting. I thought that it was disrespectful to the club and to the league that he would expect to arrive without training and be the best player in Scotland. Poor management from MW in firstly signing him on that basis and then not having the balls to address the issues that Barton raised after the first Celtic hammering.

Kranjcar - D. Was never really fit and had always been playing catch-up. Proven at the highest level, but I would be surprised if he ever fully gets over the ACL injury. Would give him a further season but possibly playing from the bench. Keep.

Barjonas - B. His few sub performances had the supporters enjoying his skills and certainly showed against St Johnstone that the idea of placing a round peg in a round hole can work. Would definitely expect to see him playing more often next season. Keep

Crooks - E. Injured, then horrible debut vs Hearts, then loaned out and got injured again. One for the future, don't think so, would definitely be behind Barjonas in the pecking order. Sell.

Toral - E. Another major disappointment but didn't seem to enjoy the physical aspect to football in Scotland. Who knew? Perhaps would have been better as a 10, but cannot play as a 6 or an 8 and be the box to box player. Certainly didn't show the player that has been through the Barca and Arsenal youth set-ups.

Hyndman - B. Could play at the highest level and probably has the game to suit the EPL. I thought he did very well although it tapered off towards the end. Best of luck to him at Bournemouth.

Forrester - D. Another how enjoys the lifestyle of a top pro before he has achieved anything on the pitch. All downhill after not squaring the ball to Dodoo for the tap-in. I think he will be gone and will end up in the English third or 4th tier.

Waghorn - D. Jury is out on him. As has been said before, he looks like a Rugby League convert, but rarely used his physicality to his benefit. Was too easily shown the outside onto his right foot and although we actually scored from this v St Johnstone, he just does not appear able to play the inverted winger role with any confidence. Sell

O'Halloran - F. To think that we spent money on this man. Another who was just not fit for purpose and given that his only real attribute is pace, the ball retention strategy (otherwise known as Plan A) was never going to allow MW to bring him into the team. Will definitely be off in the summer.

Garner - E. Cool song bro. Oh, was there some football played as well? Another invisible man shoehorned into MW's team and was never going to be able to make his mark as the solo striker with inverted wingers. As Pedro says, play to his strengths and we should be able to see more goals from him. Just not sure that he is a natural goal scorer and I think that he would need to play in a 4 4 2, with someone getting onto the end of his flick on's. I do expect to see him up front next year, but would not be heartbroken if he went back to a Preston or such like.

Miller - B. Was disappointed that he signed a further extension before the start of the season and even then expected that he would be a bit-part player. Unfortunately, the team was that poor that Miller was a stand-out. I have always admired his hard work off the ball and cringed with his technique, but fair play to him, without his goals and leadership, we would be closer to Hearts than to Aberdeen.

McKay - D. I remember this boy making his debut in a friendly against Linfield (I think) and he scored a screamer from the edge of the box. I thought that at that time we had a real player on our hands and that he had been badly managed by McCoist. In MW first season, he was a revelation and the partnership with Wallace was superb. It just hasn't clicked this season. He has wonderful touch and the ability to glide past players, but inconsistency in his performances makes one wonder if it is time for him to be sold and the proceeds put back into the team. Personally, I would rather that we kept him (provided he signs a new contract) and perhaps move him to a number 10 position.

Dodoo - D. I actually saw his Leicester debut and he looked a real quality player. He is probably young enough to improve substantially on his first season, so would keep but there was a reason that Leicester didn't extend his contract with them.

Management - F

MW and DW have either been lead by the nose by the BITB, or there is genuinely some backhanders going on. To have signed MoH and Garner and then maintain the same style of play was suicidal. We don't have 2,3m to splurge on Plan B which he never implemented. I agree that the ball retention is an attractive style of football but there has to be an end product and MW just didn't seem to be able to grasp this. The manner in which they departed did no-one any favours and it looked like amateur hour at the club.

Pedro

To say that his changes and formations have been 'interesting' would be a massive understatement. I can only hope and trust that he has been tinkering with the players and formations to see who is able to fit into next seasons master plan. I'll reserve judgement just yet given that it is not his players, but I had hoped for a much better response when he came into the club.

Board D

I do think that they have achieved their first objective which was financial stability. They backed MW with the money for Garner and MoH (which was pissed against the wall) as well as the signing on fees and salaries for the Barton's, Hill's, Kranjcar and Senderos type signings. They have put their money into the club by way of soft loans but I just feel that the attempt to pass Resolution 11

(If IRC) was half hearted. MW/DW/TBITB departures was handled very poorly (from the outside looking in, there is always more than meets the eye) and the communication with the fans over the DoF was ridiculous. I had hoped for more progress iro the Sports Direct issue, although I accept that this may only be resolved legally.

In spite of all of the above, I thank God every day that I support Rangers and WATP!

I think the intention is to have more working groups per specific projects, presumably under the control of a responsible Director.

Aye, I thought he looked like a proper midfielder, but that should be taken in the context of his teammates in the middle of the park. Windass & Toral were abysmal, and Kenny Miller was doing the normal 100% effort but very little quality or end-product. But credit where it is due, Beerman was good going forward, Bates and Wilson were left massively exposed by the lack of a defensive midfielder but won their tackles and headers, so all is not lost!

1. We got the Joey Garner song to No1 at Xmas.

2. Clint Hill scored against them.

3. It's nearly over!

Any more positives?

Will you stand for nomination again D'Art?

How can the current board vote, is there even a quorum? I agree with BH, let all directors resign and hold fresh elections.

Unfortunately and depressingly, Rangers fans will always agree to disagree and anyone willing to step out of the trenches is going to get shot down. We seem unable to fully support one of our own, irrespective of the level of effort that they bring to the position. I believe that we need to have a figurehead as the Chairperson, perhaps an ex-player or manager (Walter?). The troops needs to be rallied, not divided further and the man in the street supporter will not do that for C1872.

It is quite clear (and was pointed out on this forum, as well as others as early as January 2016) that we did not have a strong spine throughout our team. The Centre backs were suspect defensively, the full backs were great going forward but were defensively inept, our holding midfielder was a square peg in a round hole and our top goal scorer was a left footer playing on the right wing. Pedro has been left with an entire team of squad players i.e. you could replace any player with anyone sitting on the bench and it would neither weaken or strengthen the team substantially.

I am still struggling to work out Pedro's preferred tactics as this seems to vary i.e. high press - no press; long ball - playing out from the back and through the midfield; 1 striker - 4 strikers in a 4-2-4 etc. so difficult to say how the rumoured signings will fit into any coherent system. However, what I am encouraged by is that the rumours would appear to be players that would add quality throughout the spine.

(All rumours other than Wes & Garner)

GK - Wes

CB - Alves

HM - Dorrans/Jack

AM - Naismith (I know but take away the emotion for a minute)

CF - Garner

Now if you start to build around this, you can see the importance of a strong spine

GK - Wes

DF - Tav: Alves: Wilson: Wallace

Holding - Jack: Rossiter (if fit)

Attacking MF - Dorrans: Naismith: McKay

CF - Garner

You then have Miller, Hodson, Bates, Beerman, Kranjcar, Dodoo, Holt etc.

Just the signing of 4 strong players would make a massive difference. Over a period of time, you could then look to strengthen in the other areas, but it probably wouldn't be the crisis that we currently face where basically every player (perhaps bar Wes and Barrie) could be replaced. Tav and Wallace would provide the width and Jack would drop back into the 3rd CB role when they maraud forward (ala Dier at Spurs). From Pedro's comments it does appear that Garner has a future and the team has to play to his strengths to get the best out of him, whereas under MW formation and structure, it was impossible to see any value that he brought to the team, particularly with that price tag. We would probably need another CB (surprised by Clint Hill decision) and possibly another Holding midfielder - (Will Rossiter ever be fully fit?)

I'll wait and see how the signings transpire, but I will be quietly optimistic for a much better season if we get them over the line.

they must be absolutely atrocious if they can't get near that first team squad

I think that's incredibly harsh. MW was never going to play anyone outside of his favourites, which means that these boys only really had the matches under Murty and PC to try to force their way in. Players develop at different ages and those released may not be good enough right now, but may become decent players in time to come. The one I am surprised about is Max Ashmore, who I heard was closer to first team selection than Jamie Barjonas, who played last weekend. I appreciate that Murty has had them for a season at u20 and is able to evaluate them and come to this decision, but to suggest that they are atrocious is entirely wrong.

Back to the theme of the thread: Allegedly, we are interested in Motherwell's Ben Heneghan? Considering Motherwell have conceded more shots than anyone else this season it doesn't look too good, but that doesn't mean to say this guy is the problem; also, having Jaap Stam -- one of the best defenders in the game -- interested suggests he has something about him?

 

Pinch of salt?

He certainly didn't stand out in our matches against Motherwell. Would be as well persevering with Bates, who seems to be a similar type player. I would be surprised if this is genuine interest. More likely, an agent knowing that Rangers are looking at Centre Backs, and talking up his client.

MOH for Jason Cummings in a swap deal ?

More likely to be Walker from Hearts, if a swap deal is possible.

That Ajax team has some smashing players Pete. Watched them demolish Lyon in the first leg of the Europa Cup SF (average age was 21 if I recall correctly), so imagine if Advocaat can bring through one or two of those into the Dutch national team. Probably too late for current WC qualification, but could leave a legacy of youthful exuberance for the next manager and the Euro's in 2020. He has previous with promoting Fergie and making him captain, so not scared to throw youth into the equation.