Anchorman

Bit of a contradiction there, though, Anchorman - on the one hand, this issue is about a golden thread (or whatever was on the LP) of our history - and therefore vital to those who dig that sort of stuff - but to those who don't, it becomes a minor issue of fickleness over PR.

 

We have to admit that other fans have different league tables of what is vital and what is meaningless and there's little point berating others simply because they view life differently from ourselves.

 

Btw, a word of praise for Gersnet in allowing this thread to evolve - sure there will be hard words but it's an emotive subject and very hard to get to the heart of it we have to dance on eggshells all the time. Maybe the mods are all just at work, though!

Andy, the LP details were put on there to show why some people may hold on to [dotted line] links to the OO i.e. the lines were a bit more solid in previous years. I have not come out ONCE on this thread to say I am strongly on any side of the arguement. If I have show me the quote and I will gladly apologise. Where I have got my shackles up is the suggestion that certain people might come to the table as fans if we get our PR right. If they were the type of fans I want they would be here now having this heated debate with us - not staying away until we get our house in order. We will agree to differ on that point as we are obviously not going to agree on the 'stay way until PR is right' debate.

Maybe you need to word things in a way where infer what you really mean.

Aye right you are chief! I will make more effort.

The bit in bold is the most classist thing said on this forum. You are classist and it's there to see.

 

Why shouldn't we try to appeal to ALL classes? You say we shouldn't divide them and do just that.

People can always interpret words in any way they like and you are free to do that if it pleases you. You see, I interpret your comment "Why shouldn't we try to appeal to ALL classes" as you saying we don't at the moment, and that we should in some way change to fit certain classes. I SAY WE DO APPEAL TO ALL CLASSES NOW. I know plenty of people from all walks of life who are happy with how we are.

I'm only using the 'middle class' phrase to keep it in context with how it was raised. You can remove the phrase from my comment and replace it with 'anybody' i.e. ANYBODY who is fickle enough to stay away because our PR isn't right can fuck off in my eyes.

Alloa at Ibrox.

 

Can we get back to Football please.

If we are at home - probably. If we had been drawn away - probably not much bloody chance.

I have in front of me an official Rangers LP (album for the younger ones) from 1968 called Follow Follow Rangers sung by The Blue Boys Of Ibrox. [it's the one with the big Rangers rosette on the front with the little good luck horseshoe in the middle]. On the back is a summary of our history to the point in time. There is also the paragraph - "The songs are from the past. Tunes of glory. Melodies that ring out with the romance of Rangers. Words that spin out the glittering parade of their triumphs. They are songs of the people because Rangers are of the people. In a city where the harsher facts of life are known to most men, Rangers help to provide the alchemy that can dust a dull life with golden promise. For no deeper reason than that they will follow Rangers, and sing their praises. THESE ARE THE ANTHEMS". The songs on the LP include The Sash My Father Wore, No Surrender, Orange Lilly'o.

To say that the Orange Order has (or has had) nothing to do with Rangers doesn't show the whole picture. In fact it is very much open for debate, and possibly with no 'right' answer to be found. For generations of families who remember Glasgow life back then will remember they were very close cousins [and have remained so in many peoples eyes]. To dismiss the link now is to dismiss generations of beliefs among many fans, particularly in Glasgow. It is a very emotive subject as this thread proves and I don't think anyone is in a position to take the moral high ground.

I didn't know there was a class structure in Rangers boards. If someone could explain it to me, I would be egregiously platitudinous in their direction for a considerable series of twelvemonths.

Are you George Galloway's love child? I do admire your indefatigability !!!

Rubbish, utter rubbish.

Anchorman chose to play the 'class' card and project his on prejudices onto others. He has no idea the background or social standing of the people he chose to insult on here, class snobbery is vile whether it is inverted or traditional.

Ha ha ha ha - What complete and utter shite and you fuckin know it!! The 'class' card was played when someone suggested we pander to the middle classes who are staying away as 'we don't have our PR right yet'. I said fuck them as Rangers is not and never should be divided into classes. Read the posts before posting inaccuracies, but why let the truth get in the way?

Look, you asked the question so I gave you an answer, if you don't like the answer then fair enough, but to then resort to personal attacks makes you a coward in my book. If you can't engage in the debate then don't, but don't fuckin complain because other people can.

 

Your reply just shows a total and utter lack of class.

 

I'll keep the words small for you in the future.

If it makes me a coward in YOUR book I will live with that.

Lack of class? If you mean lack of class snobbery, then I can also MOST CERTAINLY live with that.

My comment about 'plain English' wasn't aimed at you, as it was a general statement, but if the cap fits and all that. It is something close to my heart at the moment as I have been involved in a number of commercial conferences taking place on the very subject. In general it discusses what the need is for people to use overly eloborate language in an environment where it's not always welcome or suited (it is a fact that it is often a barrier to open discussion as some people feel intimidated by it, which may be the purpose in some cases e.g. George Galloway. Certain people use it to mask their own insecurities). I stand by it. It doesn't intimidate or impress me. I choose not to do it because I would rather leave debates open to all people, regardless of their academic background, rather than take the chance that some people won't engage as they feel a bit intimidated. Personal choice for everyone of course.

Yeah, actually, I do think there are literally thousands of people out there who would support Rangers if we got our 'PR' right. This ties into the BBC bias thread too. Rangers have lost the support of many of the 'Protestant' middle classes in the West of Scotland, you might not care about that, but it has cost us dearly recently and will continue too in the future if we don't address it. Bringing out orange strips does not help do that in my opinion.

"Thousands" if we got our PR right??? Can you pass on my apologies and tell them we are trying our best. Can't wait to have them on board - the place will be jumping when they get here.

We've lost the middle classes??? Well whoop de fuckin do!! It shows me what fickle areseholes they are in the first place then if they can turn their back on us so easily. I'm from a very working class background in Glasgows East End. I've been fortunate enough to be successful in business and would probably be classed as at least middle class, but I would shoot down anyone in my presence who tried (as I have done many times in the past), because what the fuck is 'class' ??????? Brian Laudrup and Davie Cooper were class. Tonights Ryder Cup Winners were class. Rangers fans divided into classes??? Go fuck yourself you pompous pricks that even think like that. Ban me from this board if you like Admins but Rangers fans being divided into classses by pretentiously eloquent clowns on here is NOT the Rangers way. And while I'm at it, can you promote a 'get back to plain English' on here. While I can understand the big fancy words our 'eloquent' posters on here love to use to show how academic they are, they are well aware that it is not the 'common' language of the football fan and they should make more effort. After all they are discussing the working classes sport!

We sing a song about 4 boys who had a dream and "they had no money or even a ball". And you speak of middle classes who will only come if we get our PR right. MAKES ME SICK TO THE STOMACH!!

If anyone comes across a spare ticket for next Saturday can you let me know (unlikely I know but if you don't ask and all that..........)?

Cheers

I can't see any other reason for his actions though. Isn't he boozing buddies with those dodgy letting agent tims?

I can assure you 100% that Brown and Ally are in the same circle socially in East Kilbride.

Orange are in the process of ditching their name for "Everything Everywhere".

Orange & T Mobile joined. Already shortened to EE. How long before E2 as EE is not exactly the easiest of logos to deal with? E2 to fight it out with O2? Anyway the future maybe bright but not orange any more for them

You make some great points Andy. Maybe too many isms right enough!

Aren't you being a bit ismist?

Mentioning me and academia in the same grammatical sub-clause is something I take as a compliment.

And so you should. It's very impressive (I'm also impressed with myself managing a sub clause) :-)

Listen guys. Thanks for a great debate regarding Rangers and orange strip. There have been some great posts on either side of the debate and that's a tribute to this forum as it wouldn't be allowed on other forums ie. Rangers State Media.

 

Anyway... maybe 2 bottles of red supplied by Mr Wolfblass may have clouded my posts somewhat and I was probably OTT. (sorry anyone?) It's just somehting that I felt strongly about and personally I wish we would tap into other aspects of our history as opposed to going down the orange route. But hey...

Mine was Coors and Pinot mate, and my grumpy sore head today is linked to the very same. Good lively debate though as you say. Still say you are bonkers though :-) !

I doubt that we are aiming to win someone over. I would assume that we simple go forward in time. Which, BTW, does not mean that we should "forget" the past, or "our" past. The point is how people "see" their Rangers. To some it is a football club, to some it is a loyalist/protestant institution or safe-haven, to some it is both ... you name it. IMHO we adopted the loyalist and protestant stance during a certain stage of our history, not least to do with what the Hooped Horrors did as well. It essentially created and sustained the Old Firm "glory" for nearly a century. IMHO though, it is time to make certain that the days of making a football game a semi-political feast are gone now. Make certain, that the songs we sing nowadays - be it BMG or The Sash or Derry's Walls - are more to do with creating a rousing atmosphere than making an anti-Celtic or pro-Protestant Ulster statement. I would assume (and hope) that most Bears joining in these days are doing it for the banter rather than anything else. And I would also hope that people stop utilizing this football club for their own "agendas", be their politically or religiously motivated, or both.

Not too much I can disagree with there. If we choose to do (or not) anything as a fanbase it should always be on our terms. I'm sick to the back teeth of comments around PR etc etc and how others perceive us. Outside of our own support we are hated and anyone who can't see that is blind. Surely to God the last year has proved that. All the 'PR' in the world isn't going to change that. All it will lead to is more and more of us pandering to their whims in an unachievable quest to be liked.

Those of you claiming handwringers are scared of offending other fans are ignoring the fact that to import elements of Ulster history - which is what this is doing, Scottish Orangeism has always been marginal and without the perceived Rangers 'connection' would have died out years ago - sends out no message of positivity or inclusivism.

Very eloquently put and all that, but "those of us" that you seem to be aiming at are still left with the same question after digesting the contents of your very admirable response. Who the fuck are we trying to win over here and send out "positivity messages" to? Who is waiting to join or ranks if we get our PR right? You my friend are also very naive in my eyes despite your academia.

Well OP you are in the minority - like it or lump it. If you think there are families out there waiting to support Rangers if we get our PR right then you are (1) naive in the extreme, (2) 'radio frickin rental' , or (3) at the wind up!!

If recent events haven't taught you what the rest of this country think of Rangers even when we were at our lowest ebb, then I will suggest (1) above is the most likely.

The difference for me Pete is that red socks baloney was just another east end paranoid fairytale. Most Rangers fans know the story of our socks and no Rangers fan would be offended by them and in turn would laugh at the myths peddled by them. The orange strip is totally different. I reckon plenty of Rangers fans would pretty offended by this move

.

You haven't answered anything about my post reagrding the 2000 Cup Final.

Do plenty of Rangers fans look offended here - http://ayeready.com/features/images/oranje1.jpg ?

I think the problem Max has as why the question was so important to the boys in NI. On that respect I do find that he has a point I also think there is a second motive regarding that question.

 

Where I differ from Max is that I do not think that we should never be allowed an Orange strip. By never having one means exactly that we are agreeing it does mean more than it actually does. We should not let others dictate what colour is correct for our team.

Remember the sash cut grass and the red socks meaning up to the knees in blood. The bouncy was us jumping on someone's head and Penny Arcade was about a Catholic murdered in a Casino. We must not let these people dictate what we can do,sing(within reason) or what we wear.

ABSO 'BLOODY' LUTELY!!! In a nutshell!!

Where did I state a removal of everything non football? And I'm fully aware of Rangers working class demographic but I find any assocation with the OO just depressing. I'm sure I'm not the only one

Read my post properly. Orange strip DOES NOT = Orange Order. I was mocking your perception that it does. Answer my question about what PR means in your context as far as Rangers is concerned.

Fair doos but for me this is best place to chat about our club with balance and different POV. At least we can chat about it on here. Other sites are no no TBH

 

I totally agree with you regarding an orange strip being a PR disaster

FFS - Can I ask you what the feck PR means to you guys when it comes to our Club. We don't sell organic juice or any other commodity. What frickin public (P) are we trying to have relations ® with to the detrement of the majority of our loyal fan base? Don't you get that we don't have a demographic out there just waiting to love Rangers if we just start to behave like the Harlem Globe Trotters. I believe you guys are a danger within with this hugely naive attitude. I'm no bigot. I'm a fair minded guy, but my heritage should not be kicked any more to appease anybody!!

Just saw the details from Charles Green's trip to NI and there are a few questions that I find slightly concerning. For example...

 

Q3: Would Rangers consider bringing out an Orange Top ?

C.G: "Yes' date=' they have a number of designs and are coming near agreement with Adidas"[/b']

 

As much as I understand Rangers derive many fans from NI and most of them are from a Protestant persuasion, I feel that an orange strip would be a direct reference to the Orange Order. I also feel it panders to a certain section of our fans and in turn alienates others and I would find that very dissapointing. What has orange got to do with Rangers FOOTBALL club? Why not stick to our footballing roots and have a white strip with blue star or a black and red strip? I know Charles Green is here to make cash from Rangers but I for one would be very dissapointed if he went down this road

.

Can I ask you a question (and there is a very valid reason I ask which I will follow up with)? Were you ashamed at the 2000 Cup Final when the Rangers end at Hampden was all orange in tribute to the Dutch management team? And before you tell me what was behind that theme - please don't. I will tell you what was behind that day - official version (ask Iain King - Rangers News Chief editor at that time - NOT orange order). Were you ashamed when Rangers FC asked for the shelves of the Rangers shops to be quite literally emptied to make way for orange Dutch replica tops and orange memorabillia that made Rangers more than£300,000? I can tell you Rangers were close to the biggest shirt seller in Scottish history as the sponsors waited to see what the public perception would be towards a fan based driven orange day. Rangers and the shirt sponsors had been inundated for requests for an orange top the world over and were nervous about taking the plunge. The sponsors were desperate to do it as it had the potential to break all records. We allowed the press and our enemies to beat us down and the sponsors ran for cover. In fact i will tell you why it annoys me all the more - get a hold of the Rangers Monthly issue 22 page 4 and you will find that day was the idea of an 11 year old kid, backed by his father, with the help of Iain King. So take your orange strip = Orange Order, put it on your wall with everything else we've given in to. Your whole point is based around getting rid of everything that is not related to FOOTBALL. Rangers history is steeped upon an identity that is married to a social working class demographic. For you to suggest otherwise is naive in the extreme!

Option B without a doubt. Never surrender to bullies. I learned that mindset the hard way, but then most of us learn things the hard way...

Zappa, They say what doesn't kill you makes you a better man, but not easy to think that way at the time I''l bet!

If a couple of ringleaders get a 'team' together to set about a guy standing on his own that they see as a threat, what is the best stance for the threatened guy to adopt?

(a) be passive, try to adapt (hoping that you will not have to give too much ground) and get on with your life [only to find out no matter what you give it will NEVER be enough]?

(b) While they are aiming blows at you, make sure you get as many in as you can yourself? Will the same crowd be so eager to keep coming back to bully someone with a No Surrender attitude if they suffer a good belt on the 'Duke of Montrose' in the process?

No matter what Charles Green's ultimate legacy will be I feel proud actually to have a man at our helm who favours option B after decade upon decade of our guardians taking option A. I'm an old fart and I remember as a kid reading a certain Doug Baillie ('Rangers' man) in the 60s in the Sunday Post saying "Rangers will get a fair hearing from the press once they sign a Catholic". [get rid of their socks, Union Jack, Billy Boys........etc etc]. I asked my dad if that was true and he laughed "no chance son"

I love the fact that CG is enoying the fight and bloodying a few noses in the process and bringing back a No Surrender pride! Don't be kidded by the Keevins, Gordons, etc etc trying to make him out like some sort of nutter who is nothing more than nuisance value. They are are not lying comfortable in their beds knowing that this guy is knocking on shaky walls that they prevously thought were safe to hide behind.