D'Artagnan

Its an interesting question and Im in general agreement with John regarding the summer exodus and incoming signings - our squad is stronger than it was prior to the summer shut down.

But the question marks over the defence remain - on a numer of occasions last season we shipped 3 goals to the likes of Falkirk, Hibs, Raith & QOS. I fear against better quality opposition some of the defensive frailties will be exploited to the full. In saying that other than the St Johnstone game we coped pretty well when matched against top league opposition.

I think it was RBR who in another thread quoted the Brentford fan who said MW's defence will give you nightmares. Perhaps it will boil down to not so much as to how well we we defend but how well we capitalise on the chances our play style will undoubtedy produce.

Cant understand why limeburner is getting so much flak for stating the obvious.

The CH position has always been suspect and for all the relative points rbr makes above - surely when it came to allocating the few funds we had for new faces CH should have been the priority.

A lot of whats being discussed as to how people would react to an amount of goading in a that situation is a very subjective issue. I feel it is also influenced in that instance by where you were situated on that day and the circumstances that applied.

Let's remember if Police Scotland had done their job properly and were not now accused of being incompetent by standing and watching all this happen we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.

I am quite vocal on this as I was so close to it and had a minor with me. On one of my posts yesterday I had indicated that some would feel it justified to challenge someone who they felt was putting their child or a child they were guarding, while at the match, in danger or they felt they may be attacked.

I stand by that, luckily as I have said, I was half way up the stair after the final whistle when we seen thousands swarm onto the pitch from the Hibs end and many jump around the bottom of the main stand where we had been sitting, goading and intimidating disabled and many other Rangers fans.

It's also very hard to paint a picture as the TV companies decided not to show what happened. Believe me if they did everyone would be in no doubt as to the behaviour of Hibs fans in that 5-10 minute period where police Scotland stood back and let all hell break loose.

Wholeheartedly agree with that Coop - same where I was situated - some seem to have forgotten the testimonies of bears, particularly disabled supporters, who were of the opinion that only the pro-active action of some bears saved them from an uncertain fate - as a result of the action of the Hibs supporters and the absence of Police.

Thats why I get so angry at Jonny's latest piece - it condemns all our support on the park without any consideration of the various factors involved that day.

The responsibility for adhering to, and complying with bail conditions or additional court orders imposed on an accused person lies with the accused themselves not anyone else. It is not that different from the habitual shoplifter who finds as part of their bail condition, or as often the case these days ASBOs, who are banned from shopping outlets - it is their responsibility to comply with such conditions or orders not to enter those outlets.

While we may have different opinions on the rights and wrongs of how this has been handled Id like to highlight a few points :

The post match statement from the club raised expectations and I think this has been a factor in how we have viewed this. Perhaps lessons will be learned about the entailment of issuing statements which as Buster and I discussed on some other forums are either not sustainable or which the board find at a later point, for whatever reason they cannot apply a consistency of actions to the content and spirit of previous statements. Failing to do so just causes confusion and the the raising of expectations only to have them scuppered later.

I think whatever your opinion we can all be in agreement that the original communication from the club was very, very poor and hopefully in this regard lessons will have been learnt for the future.

Finally, it is disappointing to see some intimating an intention to cancel their Club 1872 subscriptions. This is an organisation not even in its infancy & is still at Working Group stage - nonetheless they were still prepared to take the concerns of bears to the club, acting on the information which had been passed to me. So let us not make the mistake that we ourselves have been subjected to for far too long, of hasty and premature judgements - let us at least see a board elected and a constitution established and then make of our judgements once it is properly up and running in its proposed format.

Time to re-surrect the Old Murphy's ads for Joe.

Not bitter...not in the slightest.

LAST MINUTE: Robin van Persie, made a deal with the Rangers. Fenerbahce said the event will result in a transfer.

 

 

https://twitter.com/Efsanespors/status/758413680300220416

Holy toledo - am I the only one who thought this was a twitter wind up ?

I think that's unfair Bruce. At least five of the WG are on holiday this week but I'm sure we'll contact the Club and establish exactly the rationale behind this decision and then make a decision in terms of response.

Plg

Id be interested to know if this letter represents the default position for every Rangers fan arrested with regard to the Cup Final - & would appreciate any disclosure or explanation regarding this.

The club have jumped the gun here,IMO. But then they are busy ''trying to build bridges'', no fan should enter the pitch and expect to get off with it!,but on this occassion the club should wait until plod have completed their investigation.

Ian,

Id suggest to you the Police have completed their investigations if charges have been forthcoming. But its its up to the courts - not the Police - to determine whether an individual is guilty.

I know for a fact some who have received such letters and banning/revocation of ST have yet to have their case heard before the courts & have pled not guilty.

I'm not sure but have any of these now banned Rangers supporters, actually been found guilty of any crime in a court of law for their actions at the cup final?

 

If not then the club have clearly jumped the gun here imo, let due process in the court room be completed first. Before the club judge then sentence, a Rangers supporter to a ban and loss of a expensive season ticket.

 

The club seem in a hurry to appease the Police and the SFA, why? Rangers football are the victims here, Hibernian supporters are the initiators and perpetrators of this whole debacle.

 

The club should have at least waited for the report into the riot,to be published, before they took any action against any supporter. Unless they have read the report before it's official publication, which would then indicate something stinks?

No, some are awaiting trial - one contacted me privately re this - he is pleading not guilty

Perhaps not illegal per se but it will go against the stadium regulations and being the club into disrepute. Polis will then easily convict you of breach of the peace.

Thats the normal default position Frankie for those encroaching onto the pitch.

One is left to presume that the vast nos. of Hibs fans who did that at the cup final will go unpunished - and the prosecutions will concentrate on those whose conduct amounted to more.

Not exactly fair but then again the application of the law rarely is.

“We acknowledge that a tiny minority of Rangers fans also encroached on the pitch but only after having been faced with prolonged and severe provocation and in order to protect our players and officials who were being visibly attacked in front of them. Any club’s supporters would have done the same. This distressing and deeply disturbing episode would never have happened had Hibs fans behaved properly but as they swarmed across the pitch it became immediately obvious that the security procedures were inadequate and had failed.”

This powerful and assertive paragraph from the Rangers club statement following the Scottish Cup Final now, alas, seems a world away. It appears Rangers have forgotten the mitigating circumstances they themselves cited, as several weeks on the same supporters the club defended in statement have now been subjected to an entirely different treatment courtesy of our club.

The letter below was sent out to one of our fans arrested in connection with the aftermath of the Scottish cup Final. As you can see it is in 2 parts – a kind of double whammy. The first part imposes an indefinite ban from attending both home and away matches as a consequence of being arrested at the Cup Final and thus bringing the name of the club into disrepute.

The 2nd part is dependent on the recipient of the letter being a season ticket holder (which he was) and thus his season ticket has now been forfeited, without compensation, for the alleged criminal conduct which gave rise to the arrest in Part 1.

There is nothing anywhere in the letter which offers any kind of caveat in relation to the pending court case, no suggestion that such action will be reviewed or reversed in the event of him being found not guilty or not proven at any future trial. Whatever happened to the “prolonged and severe provocation and in order to protect our players and officials who were being visibly attacked in front of them.”?

No-one is asking the club to defend the indefensible but is it really too much to allow due legal process to take its natural course? Could the club not have included the caveat in those letters that such decisions taken by the club would be subject to review in the light of the subsequent court hearings? Have the club considered how prejudicial to forthcoming legal proceedings such action may prove to be?

The particular irony in all of this is that the information which allowed Rangers to identify those charged with offences at Hampden most probably came from a football intelligence unit of Police Scotland. The same Police Scotland, some of whose members created a fictional, false and erroneous account of Rangers fans making barricades to prevent Police responding to the Hampden pitch invasion.

Actions speak louder than words, and the actions from our club in relation to the fans they once sought to defend by word, offer little to support the initial response to that post cup final statement – that as club, from the boardroom to the stands we are all in this fight together.

You are left with the horrible feeling this is not going to end well.

The powerlessness to prevent the inevitable is the most frustrating aspect of all but, as others allude to, only Gazza himself can startt the journey to recovery

I actually hoped we had completed our summer signings before this game - I still expect an additional striker to compliment the squad.

I'd love to see D'Artagnan on the board.

The constitution/articles of asociation are critical for me bud - the whole question of genuine independence will be the dealbreaker.

I get that C1872 needs to get it's systems in place (there was a post explaining ongoing work earlier in thread) and sort out other pressing issues/hold elections.

 

But I don't buy it that BlueGates is an 'honest broker' at a time when there are efforts being made to discredit individuals and the group, His other posts point at someome who wants to make a point of discrediting people and poke sarcastic/unreasonable demands of C1872.

 

Way back in the depths of this thread I said.........

 

For me there are two different issues here that merge.

 

1. You have any legitimate questions/concerns for the fans groups, any teething problems for club1872, for some a perception of COI, RF internal matters............. which have to be resolved between members/group.

2. You have a co-ordinated campaign against certain individuals that coincides/compliments what appears to be a co-ordinated move to destabilize the ongoing process regards club1872.

 

3. Two is riding on the coat-tails of One.

 

 

My belief is that Bluegates is quite skillfully doing well to appear in Category 1 when he is part of, or has become part of category 2.

That isn't to say that within his questions there aren't some valid points (if he is good then there will be).

 

Let's not pretend, generally there are those who simply don't want C1872 to succeed and will do their best to scupper any progress. Given how politics have been regards fans groups for some years, you'd expect nothing less.

 

But I repeat, the existance of Cat. 2 doesn't mean that Cat. 1 can be forgotten, C1872 would appear to have a lot of work to do, questions to answer and a lot to sort out before elections. But it should be allowed to do so without dishonest campaigns.

Buster

im well aware some are being "arsey" for want of a better word with regard to Club 1872 - my twitter TL presents clear evidence of this - I dont think however Blue Gates questions fall into such a category or categories. We need to stop focussing on destabilising subversives which is starting to have a touch of McCArthy's "reds under the bed" - and concentrate on issues,

The irony over this stooshie is that the Club 1872 handling of the matter has had a far more destabilising effect than any of the questions posed by Blue Gates originally.

D'art can i ask, are you still standing for the Club1872 board election?

Id need to see the proposed constitution first bud - it was meant to be out at the time of the launch but nothing as yet.

I think we know the MO and it seems to be running alongside other strands with a similar MO (eg. blog from Rangers supporter that appeared on another forum that made unsubstantiated allegations).

 

Bluegates within 5 posts had attempted to discredit one of those in said blog who were pointed at.... and had made unreasonable (timescale) or sarcastic demands regards minutes from a meeting.

 

Now C1872 have to sort things out but they don't need or deserve 'dishonest' attempts at destabilisation.

Hold on here Buster - there are some facts you should be aware of before you make accusations about attempting to discredit people.

It was suggested by someone on the Working Party that the e-mails at the heart of this storm in a teacup were faked or photoshopped - which is staggering in itself given that someone managed to reply to them. Furthermore the fact that such replies were then removed from the server is in itself concerning.

Perhaps rather than "destabilising" people are rightly concerned with behaviour which has all the hallmarks of being unedifying.

Its not only an excellent statement, its an excellent piece of investgative research which further empowers the statement.

I know many, including Chris, spent long hours reviewing CCTV footage in order to arrive at the truth. Well done to all involved.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/ruth-dudley-edwards/success-on-the-pitch-would-be-the-perfect-way-for-resurgent-rangers-to-confound-those-who-choose-to-demonise-club-34774268.html

Success on the pitch would be the perfect way for resurgent Rangers to confound those who choose to demonise club

Cup final violence showed the depth of hatred in Scottish football, says Ruth Dudley Edwards

Published

06/06/2016

Although I've never been able to summon up any interest in football, I've just spent hours reading about and around the Rangers versus Hibernian Scottish Cup Final on May 21.

It was a door into a world that troubled me more than I had expected.

Of course I knew about sectarianism in Scottish football, but the extent and depth of the demonisation of loyalists shocked me.

A Scot who occasionally contacts me privately on Twitter had told me how at the end of the match thousands of victorious Hibernian fans - overwhelmed by a success they hadn't had since 1902 - had poured on to the pitch, attacked Rangers players and goaded supporters.

The police had mostly been outside the stadium and so had been late arriving to restore the peace.

What had upset my correspondent particularly were attempts to blame Rangers, who had been very restrained.

However, Callum Steele, general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, saw it otherwise.

"The police response at the Scottish Cup Final was nothing short of magnificent," he said.

"It was disgraceful that hundreds of fans outside the stadium conspired to inhibit the police response through acts of violence and intimidation as well as the cowardly act of using children as blockades and shields."

This allegation was expanded in the Daily Record by a journalist called Jane Hamilton, a Celtic supporter, who said anonymous police had spoken of Rangers' fans' "mob mentality" and alleged the police had to endure a barrage of abuse and the jostling of police vans by, according to one unnamed officer, "everyone", with parents using children to block roads, "a tactic I had only seen in Northern Ireland".

Mr Steele and Ms Hamilton seemed not to have learned from the Hillsborough inquest that when the police mess up blaming fans is a bad idea.

There is to be an investigation, and I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of what clubs and police appear to have got wrong during and after these events, but on social media the fallout has been what the sports writer Gordon Waddell described as "poisonous, hate-filled, he-said-she-said effluvia".

I've been reading a great deal of that, and I don't for one minute ignore the abuse of ****s and Tims and Fenians, but the insults from republicans are of a different order, for they echo the language of demonisation republicans practised so ruthlessly in Northern Ireland and exhibit the same contempt for loyalists.

Rangers, who were founded in 1872, and whose rivalry with Celtic is legendary, have had a torrid few years of financial disasters that ended in liquidation.

Their assets were bought by Sevco Scotland (which later changed its name to The Rangers Football Club) and their players had to start again in the third division of Scottish football.

Back now in the top tier, their enemies call them Sevco and refer to their supporters as Sevconians, which the Urban Dictionary tells me refers to people "usually bald and toothless" and "consumed with bigotry and lies" who insist they are really Rangers.

On the website of Rangers supporters the Vanguard Bears, there is a thoughtful blog called "dehumanisation and the end game", which gets to the heart of the matter.

It is dehumanising to deny the club's identity by refusing to call it Rangers and to refer to its supporters as "Ku Klux Klan", "Nazis", "Huns", "knuckledraggers" and "scum".

An important part of the process of dehumanisation, as discussed in the blog, is deindividuation, "whereby individuals are seen as a member of a category or group, rather than being seen as a person".

As Sinn Fein did to Orangemen and the RUC, so extreme Scots republicans are trying to do to Rangers, with the intention of demoralising them by denying them sympathy, equality, dignity or respect.

I would hate to see supporters going down the victimhood path, but with the establishment of Club 1872, an independent new, united fan group which aspires to rebuild the club and keep it safe from dodgy businessmen, they have a much better alternative ahead of them.

Success would be the best way of confounding their enemies.

I won't be joining, but I wish Rangers well.

Huge, huge loss.

This is nothing more than a grandstanding, buck passing exercise by the Scottish Govt.

Strict liabilty would be beset by the same problems which plagued OBFA - a failure to define exactly what constitutes sectarian conduct. Had they done that from the outset, as they were advised, then OBFA would not have been such a dogs dinner.

In short the Govt want the football authorities to hold clubs to account in respect of fan behaviour which the Govt itself have failed to define. Add cowardice to buck passing and grandstanding.

The problem is that every ''football journalist'' thinks they are better qualified than any fan!,aye they maybe are university educated and are 100% entitled to their opinion/view and interpretation on anything,however their interpretation/view is only the same as any fan,especially fans who attend matches!,then they fabricate an article and when they get challenged and proved wrong they refuse to accept this,as we are only mere fans who are not university educated so therefore we are not qualified to know better!,and when they are challenged,even with undeniable facts they can't accept this fact and then we see the circling of wagons amongst all the ''journalists''! and the eventually cry sectarian abuse,and pull out the victim card!,it is so par for the course for these people to do this,even though they condemn sectarianism/bigotry yet rely on that for thier jobs!.

These people are actually responsible for feeding the sectarianism in Scotland and then when one of thier own are caught out using sectarian language they do nothing to condemn them!,honesty,transparancy!,give me a break!

Ian,

They also appear to think they above normal codes of morality. If you follow Frankie & myself on twitter we challenged Keith Jackson as he obviously went on a fishing trip yesterday, but he refused to engage with either of us or discuss the double standards of morality on display from the journalistic community.

Make no mistake abusing journalists online is not only wrong, it is counter -productive and Ive no doubt they will circle wagons and run with a story about Rangers fans driving journalists off social media.

What they will not run with however, is that a journalistic community which condemns Rangers fans for sectarian singing is unilateraly silent about sectarian tweets on some journos timelines.

“It means anyone who wasn’t there has no idea of the scale. Phone and periscope clips are there for all to see but they’re a microcosm, and judgment without the big picture is flawed.”

(Gordon Waddell, 29.05.2016)

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/h...prDGcjulHlj.97

Mr Waddell is of the opinion that the subsequent Rangers statements following the Cup Final have damaged our credibility even more than Hibs Chairman Rod Petrie’s car crash interview post-match. Perhaps Mr Waddell would do well to heed his own advice and look at not only the bigger picture but also the environment in which it was issued.

The Rangers statement was issued of course after the Petrie interview which itself drew so much condemnation from the press as it sought to down play, even question some of the events which had unfolded. It also followed the Off the Ball programme where Stuart Cosgrove had provided a masterclass in not downplaying but actually subduing all debate and discussion regarding the post-match shame.

It followed the First Minister’s tweet congratulating Hibs but offering neither mention nor condemnation of the ugly scenes of the aftermath. And of course it also followed the initial assessment by Tom English, who of course falls into Mr Waddell’s aforementioned category of “anyone who wasn’t there”.

The backdrop to the Rangers statement was a silence from our politicians, not only a downplaying but a forced closure on discussion on it from our national broadcaster and in addition a skewed focus of events from journalists who were not even present.

It is interesting that subsequent to the Rangers statement the First Minister has seen fit to comment and condemn the events post the Cup Final, Stuart Cosgrove has issued a public apology on air for his conduct and Tom English has altered his initial view of events having actually studied the evidence in more depth.

Let’s for a moment imagine a different scenario on Saturday 21st May, 2016. That a group of Rangers supporters had stormed the Hampden press box and goaded, incited, attacked, spat on and verbally abused journalists who were only doing their job. And a Rangers director subsequently dismissed such behaviour as merely “over exuberance”. That Rangers then sought to minimise all discussion or debate on the subject.

Can you imagine what the subsequent NUJ statement would have consisted of in both tone and content ?

Sometimes Mr Waddell you have to walk about in other people’s shoes to truly understand where they are coming from, in order to genuinely see that bigger picture.

Part 2 now up - due to the use of images Ive just provided the link.

https://immortalrangers.wordpress.com/

“Whoever conceals hatred with lying lips, and spreads slander, is a fool”

(Proverbs 10:18)

What a week this has been of self-discovery, where in the period of just 7 days I was able to diagnose what my doctor had been missing for years – that I am suffering from a mild form of paranoia. That’s how long it took an army of opinion leaders, journalists and headline writers, a representative of the Scottish Police Federation and 2 or 3 bobbies as yet (and conveniently, ho hum, never to be) identified, to turn the most shameful scenes witnessed in Scottish football these last 30 years or so, into a story about Rangers fans and their singing. My mild a paranoia stems from the fact I had expected them to achieve this in just 5.

Many have had their say since last Saturday, including many who were not even there, so if you don’t mind I’d like to offer a short reprise on what transpired. I was standing just to the right and behind the goals in what was the traditional “Rangers end” and for those who saw them there, I was just a few feet to the left of Jorg Albertz and Nacho Novo. Within 60 seconds of the final whistle there was a young Hibs fan no older than 25 standing in the 6 yard box inviting me and other Rangers fans to enter the field of play and fight. There was a complete absence of thought or mannerism commensurate with someone who wanted to celebrate (exuberantly or otherwise) his sole intent clearly a penchant for violence. He was quickly joined by others who had run past and well beyond the majority of Hibs supporters celebrating in their own half of the pitch and they in turn attempted to incite and goad the Rangers support into violence.

At this point it was also clear something was happening with our players, though from my very low vantage point it was impossible for me to determine exactly what that was. When I saw the match officials forming a protective cordon around Andy Halliday I feared the worst. I was absolutely perplexed by the total absence of Police numbers and their total inability to prevent what was unfolding before my eyes. I was unsure how our support would respond to this and noticed a small number to the left of me had already decided for themselves and were entering the field.

It was at this point that the Billy Boys received its first airing of the day. I have written often enough about this song in the past, my last offering being only a few weeks ago for WATP Magazine, so those who regularly read this blog will be more than familiar with my thoughts on the matter. Furthermore I’m not going to suggest that this song acted as a kind of anti-inflammatory for some in what was a highly volatile situation because I really don’t know. What I do know however is that those who have chosen to twist and distort Stewart Robertson’s comments on this song have no idea how close we were to an unprecedented full scale battle last Saturday, capable of turning all the “moral over reaction” in the world into something akin to a war zone report. Be under no illusion it really was touch and go for a few minutes.

After what seemed like an eternity the mounted Police arrived like a regiment of 7th Cavalry and managed to restore some form of semblance. I headed up the stairs to a pre-arranged rendezvous point with other members of our bus and after a couple of minutes with the detail complete we made our way out of Hampden stopping briefly for a call of nature before exiting the stadium for the long bus trip home.

On leaving the ground we saw the arrival of the convoy of Police vans. Bemused by their late arrival I checked my watch and noted it was a full 15 minutes after the final whistle. The only “barricades” they encountered took the form of a cacophony of sarcastic cheers and angry Rangers fans wishing to make official complaints at the abject Police failings. With a gruff “You’ll need to do in writing” they were off - resulting in a delay time of something approaching 2.8 seconds.

To quote the unofficial, unsubstantiated, (with the exception of Scottish Police Federation representative Calum Steele) as yet unidentified Police source “they were pointing at their watches and shouting you’re too late”

No bloody wonder.