Germinal

I dunno why whenever I try to edit a post via mobile it deletes it

When our leaders in the sport and political arena refuse to accept they were part of the problem, how can we expect the proles to do the same?

I find the political silence bewildering. So far only Simon Pia (lab) who apparently found it funny and blamed us has been heard from. Oh, Matheson, the justice secretary, was appalling yesterday. Other than that, nothing. As Mark Chapman asked on 5live yesterday, if it had been the other way round would the reaction have been as muted? To their credit, both Pat Nevin and Jonathan Northcroft said yes & you better believe they're right.

The police think they did a grand job.

The political sphere - all of it - has resolutely refused to engage.

The media is grudgingly acknowledging Hibs blame, but is very keen to involve us too.

At least Regan had the decency to be appalled right away. When Stewart Regan is the only person emerging with a tot of credit the others should look really, really closely at themselves.

This is getting ludicrous. is no-one responsible forth their actions, ever?

No idea why you think I am denying what happened, or even casting doubt on it. What I want is to have it set in legal concrete and then to pursue everyone who has suggested it may be not that bad, especially as it's only Rangers & their fans.

 

Like banging yer heid off a brick fucking wall sometimes.

That was uncalled for. Apologies.

FFS Andy, the facts ARE clear. Clear video evidence of Wallace being attacked, clear evidence of Foderingham being manhandled.

 

How long are you going to deny what our enemies deny.

 

Watch the footage and then come back with a reasoned opinion instead of pontificating whilst clearly not having viewed the footage. Had you seen the footage you wouldn't be casting doubt on what happened.

No idea why you think I am denying what happened, or even casting doubt on it. What I want is to have it set in legal concrete and then to pursue everyone who has suggested it may be not that bad, especially as it's only Rangers & their fans.

Like banging yer heid off a brick fucking wall sometimes.

I don't think the standard statement would have registered.

 

Having players attacked on the pitch and the reaction to it has been sad but fairly predictable. A reaching of a 'line in the sand' of sorts that has been coming.

 

There is an undercurrent of hatred that is now going beyond the normal football rivalry levels, is becoming more widespread and manifests itself with people in roles of responsibility attempting to downplay attacks on players and many general supporters today online trying to deny it even happened.....and when faced with video evidence trying to present mitigating factors.

 

You could argue that parts of the statement further polarizes matters but there comes a time when a stand has to be made and you have to try and change the debate from what is relatively comfortable for the 'other side' into one that starts down a road to get to the underlying problems.

First part certainly true, second part what I'm very keen to see happen. Not convinced the statement does that, though.

It was crystal clear the Hearts fan jumped onto the pitch and had a go at Lennon. Once we get the facts that our players were attacked crystal clear, we can expect the same response. And if we don't get it, there's some serious questions need to be asked.

We've got to keep the focus on proving the assaults, once that's done everything else fits into place. That's how I see it, anyway.

Get the facts clear, then call for the condemnations. Expecting them a priori, except in the broadest of terms & especially from politicians, is optimistic and doesn't really advance our case. Cold, relentless pursuit of the facts and then start looking for heads to roll.

I'm not certain Hillsborough or the ludicrous summit they called after the 'Shame Game' suggest immediate government intervention following football 'hooliganism' is always a good idea.

That said, the statement is a bit woolly.

As someone who wanted the club to stand tall here, I'm delighted.

 

Yes, there's an argument from a PR perspective that they story may change but the statement was all about defending our club and fans.

I'm sorry to read that because what the statement does is help our opponents. What do we get from it? Not a lot as far as I can see, beyond making some of us feel a little glow at the club hitting out at some 'enemies'.

The govt can issue a statement noting concern but as its a live police matter, they cannot comment further. A cop out, but annoyingly legally true. Nicola Sturgeon could if pressed make it clear she was unaware of what happened when she tweeted - I didn't know a thing about it until about midnight on Saturday & I'm guessing I'm more of a Bluenose than she is. There's no mileage in that avenue other than geeing up the non-SNP fans.

Without specifying that the 'defending' fans were helping out the disabled section, it reads like a weak justification of our fans who were on the pitch, allowing claims of hypocrisy - we absolutely need to keep control of the narrative since we have close on 100% of the media against us. We might also like to make it clear we'll hammer any of our own shown to have acted violently. Hannan in The National is a prime example - admittedly he's a terrible writer in a paper not even Nationalists buy but he's symptomatic of many and we must be razor sharp in how we present our side.

To deal with - really deal with - the journalists who have misrepresented or downplayed violent assault, the case needs to be made first. If the cops won't do so, by private actions. Then complaints are made as to why person X said this, or person Y said that. They have no wiggle room - the case has been proven in law. But pointing the finger before the evidence is set in stone just shifts the argument, deflects from the main issue and wastes everyone's time & energies.

It's more than worrying about a bit of PR - which, btw, is as bad as our defence - it's about bringing the people to serious account who plainly think Rangers players and fans getting a kicking is OK because, after all, they're only Rangers. This is a massive deal and it needs dealt with carefully and consistently. That is going to take a lot more than crowd pleasing statements made in the heat of the moment.

We cannot afford to lose this fight, but I worry the statement doesn't help us win.

Don't disagree with the sentiment, but that's a counter productive statement. The story is now Rangers v the SNP and Rangers v journalists when it should be all about Hibs and their fans. We must keep the focus on them but I don't know if that'll happen now.

Impressive stuff from Pacific Quay this morning, as a brisk chat concludes it was exuberance not violence, it was the police's fault, and it wasn't that bad anyway because someone on Twitter said so. Then an in depth examination about how Muirfield's seismic decision shames Scotland's reputation. The coverage isn't going to change anytime soon!

Btw I'd imagine we've also heard the end of the repealing the OBA.

As I said at games you will get a lot of abuse but meet most fans away from the game and there is no hatred.

The problem is extremists have been granted extensive access to airwaves and newsprint so come across as far more relevant than they should. The media has a huge amount to answer for, and not just in terms of football.

I think you kinda misunderstood me,i meant our resentment towards other teams.

Thats what they have made us do.

Its probably not healthy,but its a fact.

Ah! Well, what I'm talking about is getting results. There's no reason why you can't do a deal with someone you hold in contempt, happens all the time. So I'm saying whether we detest other teams or not is not really here or there, but working with some rather than stomping baxck into the room will get us a better end result.

By the way Germinal,i take it you saw Walter Smiths famous "teams in the process of being relegated" interview.

Thats one of the most respected men in Scottish football-----seething with resentment he was,seething.(and rightly so)

IMO,it will take decades to subside.

You could well be right. Almost certainly. But again, it's about what we can get from any particular situation. We don't have to forgive, forget or on any way lessen our resentment toward others but we absolutely must take the path which offers the best outcome, for us & for the game. Let's face it, the game outside of Rangers can hardly get much worse - we are the only light in a dismal blackout.

Fair enough,you can live without the airy notion of goodwill.

Can you handle the resentment,cos it aint going away anytime soon?(if ever)

Reckon neither of us are going to lose sleep over other fans' resentment of Rangers.

Re-being constructive,building bridges etc.

It has to be accepted that things will NEVER be the same as before,ever.

Yes,working relationships may be constructed,but that is all they will ever be.Goodwill ?No chance.

Football is a business though, & if people ever did things through goodwill you can bet your life that it suited them so to do. I can live without the goodwill of others, it's too nebulous a concept anyway.

Re-being constructive,building bridges etc.

It has to be accepted that things will NEVER be the same as before,ever.

Yes,working relationships may be constructed,but that is all they will ever be.Goodwill ?No chance.

Football is a business though, & if people ever did things through goodwill you can bet your life that it suited them so to do. I can live without the goodwill of others, it's too nebulous a concept anyway.

The play-offs aren't as rigged as they first appear. Remember, the Premiership has a 38 game season, but the Championship only has a 36 game season. So if 4th or 3rd get to the last round they've only played 2 league games more than the relegation candidate; and if 2nd make it both sides in the final will have played the same number of league games. It's really the tight scheduling that's the problem.

That's not as fair a comparison as it seems, though, because while Falkirk have seen off Hibs in two highly charged games, Killie have, since Dundee utd's relegation was confirmed, been resting players. Also, while they have to get up for two games, the Championship side have to lift themselves for four or possibly six.

The majority of top tier clubs would be against this change. Why would they vote for a representative who wanted to implement this change?

They wouldn't. But that's no reason to just let them off with it!

Building relationships with other teams, teams not in the top flight and who weren't part of the gang who kicked us out, seems like the most productive way of repairing our brand in the eyes of others. If, as in this case, the moral case is inarguable, so much the better. Let's see Motherwell, or Aberdeen, defend the present set up on any ground other than self interest - they would look even more ridiculous than usual. And then, when they try to trot out integrity on some spurious ground, their hypocrisy could be highlighted.

And above all this revenge and point scoring, the set up of the gamei n Scotland could, painfully slowly but eventually, be improved. Everyone wins.

Since the team on the park and the board up the stairs appear to the be doing their jobs quite competently, it was little surprise to see the papers shift tack onto a new story, keeping representatives of Rangers out the corridors of power at the SPFL.

The piece which was posted on here was titled 'Why We Must Keep Rangers Out', or words to that effect. No doubt it was a sub editor rather than the writer who came up with that, but while it is a bit puerile, it at least highlights the thinking of some other fans - very much still us and them.

Not much of a surprise there.

What interests me as a Rangers fan is how we are going about the aim of trying to get onto this board or that. You'll no doubt remember that we put forward a candidate last year as well about this time. But in all honesty, in any other walk of life an entity like Rangers would have to demonstrate 'good behaviour' for more than a year before it got into the boardroom.

Yes, the present lot are incompetent and yes, they're clearly having their strings pulled by Celtc but that's life! I don;t have a quibble with trying to address that, but I think we're going about it a bit clumsily. Instead of chapping loudly and insistently at the door, we could be working a little more quietly and subtly to achieve the same end, for the best reasons, and for the good the game - remember that idea?

Take the play offs. Falkirk take on Kilmarnock and, having seen both, even the weighting in favour of the Ayrshire side might not be enough to save them. Falkirk are clearly a far better team, and it will only be the illegitimate construct of Scotland's playoffs which can bail them out. That set up is an open goal for any side which wants to gather teams around a shared goal. Instead of demanding a place now, suggest a minor tweak of the play off so that, say, two teams go straight down and the Championship teams play each other for promotion. Or, if there must be a game between Championship and Premier league team, level the field so that one side doesn't get a rest ahead of the game.

The option of refusing to engage with the clubs which did us down won't get us anywhere, really. It is appealing but it's unproductive. Just be constructive. While it would be good for us it would be good all round, and that, rather than self interest, ought to be a guiding principle. If, by the bye, we talk to, work with, and get friendly with other teams in Scotland, all well and good. It might take longer but it seems a better way than 'because we're Rangers'.

It's an interesting point though. The club is clearly skelping the newspapers' collective botties for their mean behaviour toward us for the last several years but tightening up leaks almost completely, but as Barton & Krancjar show word will always out - so how do you manage what you can't prevent?

Agree with the club that via FF is hardly the ideal way. If only there was a sensible, grown up forum which could be used!

John Terry? Off to the US, surely.

Is he not quoting what the Chief of police from that time. He said that the fans were still to blame aithough the police did make mistakes.

Not in the bit I saw, Pete. And if he is, I can't see that as much better.

Kin hell, eight pages.

Staggered to see that the 'WingoverScotland' blogger is tweeting that Liverpool fans are somehow still to blame.

I know he's a twat but that's beyond belief.