Broken Promises - Why Do We Do It?

[calscot 0]

Rangers are lucky if they have a complete sell out (at Ibrox - domestically) 4 times a season. So youre arguement doesn't add up. You can buy a season ticket for Ibrox at any time during a season. Walk around the RSC Buses any Saturday at Ibrox, or walk around the stadium and you'll pick up a ticket for any game outwith an OF game easily. So again, your supply and demand arguement doesn't add up. Same is true at Parkhead.

 

The point is the stadium is close to capacity and so selling tickets 40% cheaper will not bring in 40% more people to even bring in the same money as before. It's an impossibility without the improbability of increasing the stadium (at great cost) even if the appetite is there.

 

Wigan, however are losing 40% less money in total than Rangers would with the reduction in price, as their attendances are 40% of Ibrox and falling. Their income from tickets as I said is also far less significant due to 1000% more TV money than us. They also have room to increase their attendances by almost 40%.

 

The price for a 'one off ticket' at Rangers is �£27 (IIRC) plus you're booking charge (which goes straight into SDM pocket, think it is �£1.50 per ticket). We are now also being charged anything between �£5 and �£10 for having tickets delivered to your home (finals, European games etc).

 

Doesn't sound much different to Wigan.

 

Comparing Rangers to Chelsea is a JOKE.

 

Maybe, but I compared them to Spurs which I think is a very fair comparison.

 

Chelsea have LOST a vast majority of their traditional fanbase due to the price of admission at The Bridge. Their true fans pick and chose games and attended sporadically as they can not afford to attend every home game, or purchase season tickets. Once again, you can purchase season tickets for Chelsea throughout the season and can buy tickets for most, if not all games. In fact, I'll try and dig out the last email I received from Chelsea regarding tickets (was for a CL game IIRC). Thats correct, someone who has bought the grand total of 10 tickets (for home games over 5 years) from Chelsea gets emails with the opportunity to purchase tickets for ALL their games, including away European trips. I even had the chance to purchase a CL cup final trip from Chelsea (�£1000 per person for flight, ticket and one night 5 star hotel). See, the fat cats who now outnumber the real Chelsea fans at The Bridge, didn't fancy a trip to Moscow. In fact, they don't follow Chelsea anywhere away from The Bridge, that's left to the real fans.

 

I don't disagree with that, but the point is that upper-middling clubs in the Premiership are charging far more than us, raking it in from TV and so are able to buy and pay the type of player we used to, while we can't afford them any more. We therefore have to go for a lesser standard of player, and therefore have a poorer product on show.

 

We struggle to even compete financially with a nonsense team like Wigan who are so attractive in the "best league in the world" that their already small attendances are starting to dwindle.

 

There is no way the club can afford "top dollar" for players and the team on display is reasonably representative of the kind of money that Rangers have to spend coupled with trying to attract players to a league that is becoming more backwater by the passing season.

 

I'm not saying it's value for money, I'm saying that the ticket fees reflect the standard of the football in the financial constraints of the market.

 

If we had half the fans we'd have to charge almost twice as much to put the same standard of team on the pitch. Unfortunately the likes of Wigan have 10 times the number of people who want to watch them on telly which makes up for less fans paying less at the door.

 

It's basic economics in my opinion. If Celtic were charging much less than us then your Wigan example would be far better.

 

Also, your arguement that Ibrox is 96% full is flawed. Rangers, like most if not all clubs, include all sold season tickets in their average attendences, even if a large % of these seats aren't taken. This has been most visable at Parkhead this season but lets not kid ourselves that it doesn't happen at Ibrox. So, the average gate of 49,000 isn't really 49,000 it is more likely to be around the 45,000 mark - and falling.

Cammy F

 

See my first reply above. I'm sure the same argument applies to Wigan and Spurs in any case.

 

I may be removed from the financial reality of the season ticket prices but that does not mean I can't make a rational observation. �£400 may be a lot of money but it is certainly not top dollar compared to leading European clubs, just like the same money doesn't buy you a decent bottle of Chateau Petrus.

 

I'm not saying that the prices are worth it but I'm paying four times as much for the same old petrol but I also don't blame Tesco for the inflated price.

 

It's the market that sets the framework for the prices. Mismanagement aside, Rangers are pretty much charging local market rates for what they are supplying. There is no better product in Scotland and pretty much the same standard is offered for about the same price by the only other supplier at that level.

Edited April 21, 2009 by calscot

[CammyF 6,887]

I may be removed from the financial reality of the season ticket prices but that does not mean I can't make a rational observation. �£400 may be a lot of money but it is certainly not top dollar compared to leading European clubs, just like the same money doesn't buy you a decent bottle of Chateau Petrus.

 

That is not what I said - I actually said that being removed from the frontline, makes it easier to come up with reasons for people renewing. All people who are removed from the reality see is the actual price of the season ticket and none of the shit that goes along with it. They don't see the state of Ibrox at the moment - the gruby exterior, the vadalism around the stadium, the state of the toilets, the standard to food outlets. They don't witness the length of wait for supporters buses to be removed from the area. The don't witness the cars being trashed week-in, week-out. They don't witness people being attacked at the flats just before PRW by gangs of thugs.

 

It's the market that sets the framework for the prices. Mismanagement aside, Rangers are pretty much charging local market rates for what they are supplying. There is no better product in Scotland and pretty much the same standard is offered for about the same price by the only other supplier at that level.

 

Surely that is a matter of opinion? Not so long ago (well, it is sometime ago now), I was paying far less for a better product. I was paying far less for a far more successful team on the pitch. The product has gotten worse, but I am paying more to watch it.

 

Lets use your petrol example. Say 5 years ago you were paying �£30 for a full tank of petrol. That petrol lasted you a week, it ensured that your car ran with great efficency, it didn't damage your engine in any way - you'd rightly be happy with that. Now, it takes you �£60 to fill your engine, the quality of petrol isn't the same. Your car doesn't run smothly, it judders ever now and then, and sometimes even refuses to start. I'm sure you wouldn't be happy with Tescos would you?

 

Cammy F

[calscot 0]

That is not what I said - I actually said that being removed from the frontline, makes it easier to come up with reasons for people renewing. All people who are removed from the reality see is the actual price of the season ticket and none of the shit that goes along with it. They don't see the state of Ibrox at the moment - the gruby exterior, the vadalism around the stadium, the state of the toilets, the standard to food outlets. They don't witness the length of wait for supporters buses to be removed from the area. The don't witness the cars being trashed week-in, week-out. They don't witness people being attacked at the flats just before PRW by gangs of thugs.

 

All very valid but that's not what I'm arguing against.

 

Surely that is a matter of opinion? Not so long ago (well, it is sometime ago now), I was paying far less for a better product. I was paying far less for a far more successful team on the pitch. The product has gotten worse, but I am paying more to watch it.

 

Lets use your petrol example. Say 5 years ago you were paying �£30 for a full tank of petrol. That petrol lasted you a week, it ensured that your car ran with great efficency, it didn't damage your engine in any way - you'd rightly be happy with that. Now, it takes you �£60 to fill your engine, the quality of petrol isn't the same. Your car doesn't run smothly, it judders ever now and then, and sometimes even refuses to start. I'm sure you wouldn't be happy with Tescos would you?

 

 

Funnily enough with the petrol analogy our team is doing ok. 1pt behind the leader is better than very many seasons outside NAIR, and a couple of cups and a Euro final is pretty good too. The petrol may not look or smell so good (maybe because lead is removed and it has additives?) but it's doing a pretty reasonable job of getting you from A to B.

 

But you're seem to be trying to miss the point. Supposing you like apples. Say 20 years ago Scotland was producing some excellent fruit and Western Glasgow apple eaters suddenly have more money to spend on apples than the rest of Europe who weren't as keen in apples at the time and the English had actually gone off them due to having so many diseased ones there. So supposing you were paying 5p for a really good apple.

 

Then Scottish apples lost their quality, and European apples were better, the price of apples goes up but you spend a lot of money on European apples and still enjoy them immensely. So now your paying 10p for some of the best apples around.

 

Then recently, apple becomes incredibly popular in England, Germany, Italy and Spain suddenly have loads more money want the best apples. Demand from rich, keen customers pushes the prices through the roof and you can no longer afford the best apples. Not only that you've spent too much on apples before and have debts to pay back.

 

You have to make do with second rate apples and have to pay through the nose for them at 50p an apple because in England they are paying �£2 for the best apples. You try to save money buying local Scottish apples but they are still over priced and quite often not very good.

 

You're now paying much more for an inferior product.

 

I can't put it any plainer.

 

You could even compare it to the housing market. You could buy a very good house 20 years ago for say 100 grand. Now an average house will cost you over �£250k. Much more money, much less quality, but do you blame the vendor?

 

Some Scots couldn't even afford to buy houses in their own village because so many English have bought up loads as holiday homes and driven up the price out of their reach.

 

I still think you're forgetting we used to have the highest paid player in the UK at Ibrox at one point in Trevor Steven. Now Man U are paying up to 5 times as much as we do and the likes of Spurs are paying up to 4 times as much.

 

Of course the product is poorer. The riches and demand in England has driven prices through the roof. We've gone from THE richest to about the 16th richest in the UK and the quality reflects that.

 

Celtic are in the same boat as are the rest of the league which is why we're at the same level compared to the Eastenders and still well ahead of the rest.

 

We can even compete well out with the second tier clubs in Europe and if our results in the last 4 years were part of a league, we'd be doing pretty well despite a recent poor result against a bottom team.

 

The only way to get better value for your money is to find about 6 million mates who are willing to pay �£20 a month to watch Scottish football on the telly.

 

If you believe some rumours, in about 5 years you could be paying about a grand a season to see us competing as mid-table nobodies in the Premiership and coming home to complain about how we were crap against the likes of Hull who stuffed us 3-0.

[CammyF 6,887]

Funnily enough with the petrol analogy our team is doing ok. 1pt behind the leader is better than very many seasons outside NAIR, and a couple of cups and a Euro final is pretty good too. The petrol may not look or smell so good (maybe because lead is removed and it has additives?) but it's doing a pretty reasonable job of getting you from A to B.

 

But I want to get from A to B before anyone else does. I want to get from A to B smoothly with no bumps in the road, no stalling and no crashes. I am fed up getting from A to B and finding that someone has beaten me. I am paying top $$ for being 2nd. I am paying top $$ for a product that has gone backwards and isn't delivering. Coming close isn't good enough. The most annyoning thing is that the person who keeps beating me to 1rst place is using the same, if not an inferior product.

 

But you're seem to be trying to miss the point. Supposing you like apples. Say 20 years ago Scotland was producing some excellent fruit and Western Glasgow apple eaters suddenly have more money to spend on apples than the rest of Europe who weren't as keen in apples at the time and the English had actually gone off them due to having so many diseased ones there. So supposing you were paying 5p for a really good apple.

 

Then Scottish apples lost their quality, and European apples were better, the price of apples goes up but you spend a lot of money on European apples and still enjoy them immensely. So now your paying 10p for some of the best apples around.

 

Then recently, apple becomes incredibly popular in England, Germany, Italy and Spain suddenly have loads more money want the best apples. Demand from rich, keen customers pushes the prices through the roof and you can no longer afford the best apples. Not only that you've spent too much on apples before and have debts to pay back.

 

You have to make do with second rate apples and have to pay through the nose for them at 50p an apple because in England they are paying �£2 for the best apples. You try to save money buying local Scottish apples but they are still over priced and quite often not very good.

 

You're now paying much more for an inferior product.

 

So I have just to sit back and accept that? I have just to continue to pay more for an inferior product? I can't ask Scotland why it has suddenly stopped producing good apples? I can't ask Scotland to look at the reasons as why France, Spain, Germany, England, Portugal, Holland et al are now producing and sourcing the best produce? I can't all be down to money, considering Rangers have potentially more income than those countries?

 

Surely the person in charge of 'Scotland' or we'll cut to the chase, Rangers has an obligation to investigate and invest in the tools required to ensure that we get the best produce for the money we are willing to spend. We have spent �£20M on very average apples in the summer, some of which are rank rotten. Doesn't seem to me that the custodian is looking after my, yours or even his investments every well.

 

Any leader worth his salt would have plans in place to source produce for an up and coming nation where the produce has yet to be discovered or where the market hasn't been tapped into. Hell, we even spent millions on a place where we were to produce our own product that would see us the envy of the world. However, like everything attached to Rangers, it wasn't set up correctly and hasn't been managed correctly and has yet to bear fruit.

 

Cammy F

Edited April 22, 2009 by CammyF

[calscot 0]

But I want to get from A to B before anyone else does. I want to get from A to B smoothly with no bumps in the road, no stalling and no crashes. I am fed up getting from A to B and finding that someone has beaten me. I am paying top $$ for being 2nd. I am paying top $$ for a product that has gone backwards and isn't delivering. Coming close isn't good enough. The most annyoning thing is that the person who keeps beating me to 1rst place is using the same, if not an inferior product.

 

You are certainly NOT paying top dollar. And at the moment you are streets ahead of everyone paying less than you. The person beating you has more income, less debt and is subsequently paying more for their fuel - AND they are only beating you due to fixing the traffic lights and having the cops make mistakes that hold you up.

 

So I have just to sit back and accept that? I have just to continue to pay more for an inferior product? I can't ask Scotland why it has suddenly stopped producing good apples?

 

You have to accept it as much as global warming. You can't do much about it in the short term but you can plan for the future. Scotland has stopped producing good apples due to climate change.

 

I can't ask Scotland to look at the reasons as why France, Spain, Germany, England, Portugal, Holland et al are now producing and sourcing the best produce?

 

They are now sourcing better produce due to producing more tonnage and so can select from the best, investing more money in the infrastructure and sometimes just having a better climate and more enthusiastic farmers.

 

I can't all be down to money, considering Rangers have potentially more income than those countries?

 

We certainly don't have more money than these countries. We may have more gross than Portugal but they in turn have far lower costs. Just compare house prices for example.

 

They also have a stronger currency as well as over twice the population. Their weather and culture mean they have more kids playing football while ours no doubt would thrash theirs at pie eating competitions, computer games, drinking competitions, baby making competitions and knife fights.

 

Surely the person in charge of 'Scotland' or we'll cut to the chase, Rangers has an obligation to investigate and invest in the tools required to ensure that we get the best produce for the money we are willing to spend. We have spent �£20M on very average apples in the summer, some of which are rank rotten. Doesn't seem to me that the custodian is looking after my, yours or even his investments every well.

 

Much has been said about that but the environmental and cultural factors have an effect that can't be avoided even by the supposedly better custodian next door. It could be argued that we're doing ok considering but where SDM is failing is at keeping the debt down and allowing less than efficient spending and timing of that spending.

 

 

Any leader worth his salt would have plans in place to source produce for an up and coming nation where the produce has yet to be discovered or where the market hasn't been tapped into. Hell, we even spent millions on a place where we were to produce our own product that would see us the envy of the world. However, like everything attached to Rangers, it wasn't set up correctly and hasn't been managed correctly and has yet to bear fruit.

Cammy F

 

While I agree he hasn't done that well, each time that he has tried, there has been far less appetite for it than has been speculated.

 

He's tried China, Australia, South Africa and had a go at the US. The market doesn't seem to be there and Celtic have fared little better except that Nakamura has brought in some fans in Japan.

 

I really don't think that market is actually there while we play in the SPL and the EPL takes the plaudits as being considered or touted as, "the best league in the world".

 

We're just not playing in an attractive enough league and our ex-pats and descendants are not really that bothered.

 

As for Murray Park, I never thought it would be a conveyor belt of talent - which club has perfected that? I don't even see Ajax doing that well lately. I always think choosing only from your own youngsters severely restricts you as how many from such a small pool are going to make the grade of the best team in the country? The law of averages is way against it.

 

But a huge part of the problem is that there is just not enough Scottish talent around when PE hardly exists, pitches are being built on, football is banned from school play grounds and the kids are the fattest and unhealthiest in Europe.

[CammyF 6,887]

You have completely missed what I am saying. I am saying that Rangers should be scouring the world for the best talent. They should have an infrastructure like say, Lyon, Porto, AZ etc where they have a dedicated team who recruit players from all ages from all over the world. This is usually headed up by a 'football person'.

 

It can't be denied that we aren't receiving value for money, given that we are paying more for an inferior product. The state of our club both financially and cosmetically has also gotten worse over the last 10 years.

 

Cammy F

[craig 5,199]

You have completely missed what I am saying. I am saying that Rangers should be scouring the world for the best talent. They should have an infrastructure like say, Lyon, Porto, AZ etc where they have a dedicated team who recruit players from all ages from all over the world. This is usually headed up by a 'football person'.

 

It can't be denied that we aren't receiving value for money, given that we are paying more for an inferior product. The state of our club both financially and cosmetically has also gotten worse over the last 10 years.

 

Cammy F

 

And this neednt cost the earth either.

 

Man U picked up Shaun Goater from Bermuda when he was younger. Now, there are plenty of Rangers fans out here who watch enough of the teams here to recognise the better players. The cost of sending one person out here to watch ? Less than 1,000 pounds.

 

I am not saying that the fans would necessarily pick up world-class talent but they might be able to get you someone unrecognised who could do a job, and for a fraction of the cost of the developed countries.

 

Look at Latapy for instance.

 

Rangers could be using fans as well as, more importantly, ex-pros. And in the case of ex-pros they MIGHT be willing to do it for expenses only.

[CammyF 6,887]

Just an update - I've folded. Season ticket renewal on its way back to Ibrox (SPL away fixures, home and away cup ties all ticked and travel club renewal also sent) and I've secured tickets for the remaining away SPL fixtures (Hibs and DUFC)

 

Apologies Gazza8 I just didn't have the fortitude not to renew. Acht well, another season of torture, logistical nightmares, horrendous visa bills, money not well spent.

 

Never mind, it'll all be worth it :devil:

 

Cammy F

[ian1964 10,447]

Just an update - I've folded. Season ticket renewal on its way back to Ibrox (SPL away fixures, home and away cup ties all ticked and travel club renewal also sent) and I've secured tickets for the remaining away SPL fixtures (Hibs and DUFC)

 

Apologies Gazza8 I just didn't have the fortitude not to renew. Acht well, another season of torture, logistical nightmares, horrendous visa bills, money not well spent.

 

Never mind, it'll all be worth it :devil:

 

Cammy F

 

See you next season as well then Cammy

[CammyF 6,887]

See you next season as well then Cammy

 

All we need to sort out now is getting a wee bar in TBO section

 

Cammy F