Sectarianism and football - Jeanette Findlay

[ian1964 10,457]

Scottish Review:

 

 

I usually make it my business not to intervene in discussions about football and sectarianism because I have become increasingly tired of the discussion, fed up of the ignorance surrounding what sectarianism is and exhausted by the outpourings of the press, the police and the government who all wish to use football as a means to some other end such as selling papers devoid of real news, defending budgets and promoting the idea of a national police force and covering up failings in other policy areas.

There seems to be one thing that huge swathes of the Scottish population ââ?¬â?? and all those organisations which make a living out of getting Glaswegian children of different religions to do what they already do (ie play together) ââ?¬â?? seem to agree on and that is that there is this thing called sectarianism which we don't want to actually define (because it is a bit tricky); it is perpetrated only by football fans; and only those football fans who support teams based in Glasgow. This allows the same group of people to get all smug and self-righteous about the subject while proclaiming their own clean hands in the matter.

The thing is, I like the Scottish Review. I find it interesting and informative on a whole range of topics and I enjoy reading the different takes of people on issues of concern to all citizens of Scotland. I don't even mind the fact that Jill Stephenson from time to time peddles the usual anti-Catholic school agenda disguised as secularism which is the modus operandi of the anti-Catholic middle classes. However, I cannot let Peter MacAulay's piece (20 July) pass without comment.

No Peter, if there is sectarianism (which I define as treating someone ââ?¬â?? by word or deed ââ?¬â?? in a negative fashion based on their religion or perceived religion) in Scotland then, in my experience, not only does it extend far beyond football but it extends throughout all football grounds in Scotland. The evidence is there for any journalist, which I see that you are, to find if they care to look for it. Catholics (and Muslims) are more likely to be in jail than the rest of the population (according to the evidence given to the petitions committee of the Scottish Parliament who are considering this matter at present); they are disproportionately present in poor areas; they are more likely to be the victims of sectarian violence; and they suffer poorer health even once you account for socio-economic factors.

 

The largely-Catholic wave of Irish immigration into Scotland in the mid-19th century took till 2001 to reach economic parity (in occupational terms) with the indigenous population. The same wave of immigrants who chose the US as their destination achieved the same status in the early years of the 20th century. At the other end of the scale, we have never had a Catholic prime minister; Tony Blair, to his shame, thought it expedient to wait till he demitted office to convert to Catholicism, and had Catherine Middleton been a Catholic, we would have been spared the endless discussion of her and her sister we have had to endure since her engagement was announced (because it wouldn't have been!). How is all of that confined to the West of Scotland or to football fans?

Unlike Peter, I attend football matches (involving Celtic) in every ground in the country and I can assure you that I have been subject to sectarian abuse in grounds well outside of the West of Scotland ââ?¬â?? for what it is worth, I found Tynecastle to be the most viciously poisonous ground in the country even before our manager was attacked by one of their fans.

If you are not used to hearing a discussion of the issue of Catholic schools or other contentious issues in rural areas, you might want to ask yourself how many Catholics are actually in your community. Scotland used to wrongly pride itself in being free of racism until large numbers of black faces started to appear in our streets and it turned out we weren't so tolerant after all. Catholics are not inherently visible but when they make themselves so, as young, educated and confident young Catholics (a set which intersects with the Celtic support in a number of aspects) now do, we find that the famed Scottish tolerance starts to fray at the edges a bit.

But never mind the evidence, Peter; just tell us what you think. You end your piece by citing one piece of anecdotal evidence from 2010. Your snide comment about 'Special Brew' also puts your piece in context ââ?¬â?? are Celtic fans the only people in Scotland with a problematic relationship with alcohol? Do they not drink in your part of the country? Are there no fans of Ross County who ever get drunk in public? I don't even think young people drink Special Brew any more.

Finally, Peter, you may not like young Celtic fans singing about the IRA but, whatever it is and regardless of one's view on its appropriateness, it is not sectarianism. Mixing up vocal support for the concept of a 32-county Irish Republic with not liking people because of their religion is not the standard of discussion I expect from the Scottish Review.

 

http://www.scottishreview.net/JeanetteFindlay151.shtml

[Frankie 8,186]

And a cracking riposte from a Uni of Edinburgh Phd student:

 

http://www.scottishreview.net/AlasdairMcKillop152.shtml

[der Berliner 3,290]

Finally, Peter, you may not like young Celtic fans singing about the IRA but, whatever it is and regardless of one's view on its appropriateness, it is not sectarianism.

 

Yeah, the very interesting debate about what "sectarianism" actually means. It would have been a good idea, if Ms. Findlay had given their explanation about this then, and why she would (if she does, that is) regard Rangers songs sectarian. And which songs in particular, of course. I mean, we hardly ever hear FTP and TBB these last dozen or so months at Rangers games - yet the less we hear them, the louder the "always offended" bark once someone does indeed dare to utter those vile words. Whether within a football ground or otherwise.

Which brings me to the point: these songs of the hooped horrors, Ms. Findlay, how would you term them? "Whatever it is ... " is lacking intellect. Intentionally, I may add.

[calscot 0]

How can IRA songs not be sectarian but Fen. Bas./Blood is? Or songs about a razor gang? Isn't the "Famine song" political (and satirical) too? And as the famine affected all religions, in no way can it be sectarian.

 

Isn't is all about "rational people" being offended? I that is the case is not singing songs in praise of terrorist atrocities and banners denigrating the memory of those fallen in the wars about as offensive at gets?

 

Anyway it's pretty obvious, if you want to argue about it, that the IRA ARE sectarian and the so are the majority of the Celtic support.

[craig 5,199]

And a cracking riposte from a Uni of Edinburgh Phd student:

 

http://www.scottishreview.net/AlasdairMcKillop152.shtml

 

Invite that lad over here. Cracking read.

[Guest Dutchy]

I consider the whole debate rather false and a self-publicty stunt by the yahoos that want this treated as a proper subject of conversation.

 

How many times must we hear how of the multitude of evil acts from either side.

 

Our politicians should be trying to solve the problem, if they don't do it right, It will only become worse.

[GovanAllan 0]

Great stuff Alasdair a great read. Why is that everyone on the middle ground or our side of this debate can take an open look at both sides of the argument see the flaws on both sides and have a responsible debate on the subject. Unlike the yahoos who only see one side theirs as right and bugger the rest of you we will never get this sorted until they do, I hazard it will be a cold day in hell.

[der Berliner 3,290]

Obviously, nigh all people involved simply ignore that a great percentage of the songs are meant to be football banter. Thus they judge it utterly out of context ...

[26th of foot 5,859]

Alasdair McKillop has noted something that is most familiar to most weary viewers of ra sectarianism industry. The frequency of Yahoos to quote the very same latest statistic/evidence/theme that is most supportive to their perspective. It is uncanny, Tom Devine, James McMillan, Phil McStupidname, Patrick O'Reilley, Tom Minogue, Jeanette Findlay, ...............et al; all punch home the very same point, reinforced by the same reference.

 

I suppose it's a catechism.

 

More power to Alasdair, I gave up on Tom Devine as a Historian when he described the Covenanters as the forerunners to the Taliban.