A dinosaur rears it's head

[simplythebest 0]

I've not heard that one but it's obvious it's in the Tory ethos. you can't do a big campaign against devolution and then say you'll never reverse it.

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives is backing further devolution powers.

 

The Tories may have campaigned against it at the time but sometimes you have to move on and compromise.

[simplythebest 0]

The problem with the no vote is that it mainly relies on telling us how shit we are and how much we rely on England looking after us.

 

The other argument is that things are great the way they are - but when you ask people about the state of our nation, not many are complimentary.

 

So the no vote campaign just comes across as a complete con.

I don't agree at all, it relies on telling us that we're better working together and separatism isn't the answer.

 

It would be hard pushed for anyone to claim that the UK is perfect but it's also nuts to start building walls (metaphorically of course) around us because we assume it can't be worse, the grass is greener etc.

[calscot 0]

I don't agree at all, it relies on telling us that we're better working together and separatism isn't the answer.

 

I somewhat agree with that philosophy and that's what makes me ambivalent - but it's rarely the message I hear.

 

It would be hard pushed for anyone to claim that the UK is perfect but it's also nuts to start building walls (metaphorically of course) around us because we assume it can't be worse, the grass is greener etc.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Scotland suffers badly due to the UK's asymmetry. The North of England also suffers but we are even farther from the centre of wealth than they are - and they aren't a nation that can do something. They say the Geordies have as big chip on their shoulder as we have, but their problem is that they can't blame the English.

 

The south thrives at the expense of the North and the peripheries. Independence would give Scotland a better share of its own wealth and restore some balance. There may still be more emphasis on the central belt but the differential would be a lot less.

 

London is both the jewel in the crown and the debilitating parasite of the UK and Scotland suffers for it. If the UK would spead its government, armed forces and public works around the whole country, then that no argument would be far, far stronger.

 

Unless the above argument has more strength, it starts to look like apathy and who can be bothered voting for that?

Edited August 1, 2013 by calscot

[calscot 0]

The strange thing is that I was on the fence, but the more I hear the no argument, the more I lean to yes.

[simplythebest 0]

The strange thing is that I was on the fence, but the more I hear the no argument, the more I lean to yes.

 

Living in England I assume you can't vote anyway?

[Thinker 887]

I somewhat agree with that philosophy and that's what makes me ambivalent - but it's rarely the message I hear.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure about that. Scotland suffers badly due to the UK's asymmetry. The North of England also suffers but we are even farther from the centre of wealth than they are - and they aren't a nation that can do something. They say the Geordies have as big chip on their shoulder as we have, but their problem is that they can't blame the English.

 

The south thrives at the expense of the North and the peripheries. Independence would give Scotland a better share of its own wealth and restore some balance. There may still be more emphasis on the central belt but the differential would be a lot less.

 

London is both the jewel in the crown and the debilitating parasite of the UK and Scotland suffers for it. If the UK would spead its government, armed forces and public works around the whole country, then that no argument would be far, far stronger.

 

I'd far rather fix the problems that the UK faces rather than cut ourselves free and abandon the rest (the North East, North West - pretty much everywhere outside the home counties) to their fate.

 

Personally, I'm not swayed by what's better for me if it comes at the expense of others.

[calscot 0]

Living in England I assume you can't vote anyway?

 

Correct. Just voicing my opinion.

[simplythebest 0]

I somewhat agree with that philosophy and that's what makes me ambivalent - but it's rarely the message I hear.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure about that. Scotland suffers badly due to the UK's asymmetry. The North of England also suffers but we are even farther from the centre of wealth than they are - and they aren't a nation that can do something. They say the Geordies have as big chip on their shoulder as we have, but their problem is that they can't blame the English.

 

The south thrives at the expense of the North and the peripheries. Independence would give Scotland a better share of its own wealth and restore some balance. There may still be more emphasis on the central belt but the differential would be a lot less.

 

London is both the jewel in the crown and the debilitating parasite of the UK and Scotland suffers for it. If the UK would spead its government, armed forces and public works around the whole country, then that no argument would be far, far stronger.

 

Unless the above argument has more strength, it starts to look like apathy and who can be bothered voting for that?

That may not be the message all the time but sometimes a more severe message has to be put forward, especially for people who are voting Yes based on a Braveheart mentality.

 

I believe if there's a desire for big change then there has to be other less separatist ways to attempt to change things, even if it'll be quite a long term project.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

If i give you any examples you'll just patronise and claim they aren't true anyway.

 

So, if I understand this, the reason that you're not providing examples of "anti-english" statements and of "plenty of scaremongering by the Yes campaign" is not hat you can't come up with any, but rather that if you do provide some, I'll just say they aren't true?

 

Deary me.

[Thinker 887]

So, if I understand this, the reason that you're not providing examples of "anti-english" statements and of "plenty of scaremongering by the Yes campaign" is not hat you can't come up with any, but rather that if you do provide some, I'll just say they aren't true?

 

Deary me.

 

Well, I suppose by its very nature the No campaign has to be more negative than the Yes campaign. We're dealing with a hypothetical future situation here - it's the Yes campaign's job to paint as rosy a picture of it as possible, the No campaign's to point out the potential pitfalls.

 

In any case, as I've tried to allude to in a couple of my previous posts (#148 and #166), my concern about independence isn't that us fortunate ones North of the border won't make out like bandits (although, that's definitely not a given), it's that its aim is the betterment of the situation of a few of us (UK citizens) at the expense of the rest. That "rest" includes a large number family and friends for me.

 

For whatever reason, none of the pro-independence campaigners on here have replied to those posts. Maybe my point is so stupidly flawed that it's not worth addressing...

Edited August 1, 2013 by Thinker