A dinosaur rears it's head

[simplythebest 0]

Well, I suppose by its very nature the No campaign has to be more negative than the Yes campaign. We're dealing with a hypothetical future situation here - it's the Yes campaign's job to paint as rosy a picture of it as possible, the No campaign's to point out the potential pitfalls.

 

In any case, as I've tried to allude to in a couple of my previous posts (#148 and #166), my concern about independence isn't that us fortunate ones North of the border won't make out like bandits (although, that's definitely not a given), it's that its aim is the betterment of the situation of a few of us (UK citizens) at the expense of the rest. That "rest" includes a large number family and friends for me.

 

For whatever reason, none of the pro-independence campaigners on here have replied to those posts. Maybe my point is so stupidly flawed that it's not worth addressing...

 

The Yes campaign are trying to break up a union of hundreds of years, much onus has to be on them to make a case.

[amms 0]

I think our British identity is reflected in our songs and symbolism - many of our songs are popular British anthems and the flag you see most commonly on display at Ibrox is the Union Flag. Its probably why guys like Jeff Randall referred to us as - "the quintissential British club"

 

I dont think I ever alluded to us being any more ( or less for that matter) British than Hartlepool or Plymouth Argyle .

 

Yes, but I'm not sure what a 'British identity' actually is? I can only think of two songs that could be described as 'British anthems', GSTQ and Rule Britannia and I'm not sure either could be described as popular, but I'd concede they are very well known. You certainly see Union flags at the games but what aspect of British identity is that representing? What I'm trying to understand is what you mean by 'British identity'. I think I understand what you mean by "Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist" and for all I think 'loyalism' is a form of delusion others clearly feel strongly about it so fair enough. But 'British identity' is such a difficult concept to pin down, what are you identifying with; Isambard Brunel, Peter Thatchel, Jane Eyre, Tony Blair, fox hunting, dark satanic mills, naturally forming orderly queues?

 

You are correct, you didn't allude to any other clubs. You said "We are not just supporting a football club, but a set of beliefs, of standards, when we sing we do so with a passion which goes beyond sport, into the realms of a celebration of identity and culture." from which I wondered how our British identity is different from any of the other clubs mentioned, because as far as I know they don't 'celebrate' it in that way?

 

We're on a different page in terms of what we think is important culturally for our club, I've known that since I started reading your articles, but that's not what I'm contesting here. I'm just curious what aspect of British identity it is you think the supporters and the club represent, and why? Because for the life of me I don't see it.

 

Thanks for replying, I really wasn't having a dig on the other thread.

[pete 2,499]

Why on earth would you stop caring about people because of where they live or which passport they hold?

 

 

 

It's not difficult. If a child is born in Scotland, irrespective of his or her parentage, grows up in Scotland and chooses to live in Scotland, that child is Scottish.

If a child is born elsewhere,. England for example, of Scottish parentage, grows up in England and wishes to continue to live in England, then that person is English.

To suggest otherwise is to follow the germanic model of the bloodline determining you nationality - which is not a pleasant thing at all.

 

If we become independent and your children continue to live in England after the age of majority, then I have bad news for you mate; you have fathered Englishmen.

 

You're still allowed to love them, though.

 

Papa that is not actually 100% true I know quite a few people that were born and bred in Holland but their parents chose to give them British Nationality. They had to carry an immigrants pass and still had to report to the immigration police every 5 years( I believe). It is now different since we are all European but your nationality is given to you by your parents and not your place of birth.

[Bluedell 5,356]

There seems to be a belief that unless you can define something down to the smallest point then it can't exist.

 

We are a British club. We, the fans, the directors, the management show it in a number of different ways, either by our songs and chants, our flags, our traditions, our customs, the political stances etc.

 

Not all agree with it, not all want it there but it does exist. It doesn't mean that all fans have to like it or have to be supportive of it but is there really a need to define it? I'm sure I could if I had the desire and the time but I have neither. I know it's there. Others may disagree as is their right but that doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned.

[amms 0]

There seems to be a belief that unless you can define something down to the smallest point then it can't exist.

 

We are a British club. We, the fans, the directors, the management show it in a number of different ways, either by our songs and chants, our flags, our traditions, our customs, the political stances etc.

 

Not all agree with it, not all want it there but it does exist. It doesn't mean that all fans have to like it or have to be supportive of it but is there really a need to define it? I'm sure I could if I had the desire and the time but I have neither. I know it's there. Others may disagree as is their right but that doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned.

 

How can you celebrate something you can't define?

 

I'm not disagreeing I'm asking D'art what he means by it. A lot of D'Art's post is about traditional ideals or beliefs, dinosaurs as he calls them. So it's fair to ask what he means by one of those beliefs because I'm unsure it is accurate. It doesn't need defined to the smallest point, but some definition would be interesting because there are lots of 'British clubs'.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Well, I suppose by its very nature the No campaign has to be more negative than the Yes campaign. We're dealing with a hypothetical future situation here - it's the Yes campaign's job to paint as rosy a picture of it as possible, the No campaign's to point out the potential pitfalls.

 

In any case, as I've tried to allude to in a couple of my previous posts (#148 and #166), my concern about independence isn't that us fortunate ones North of the border won't make out like bandits (although, that's definitely not a given), it's that its aim is the betterment of the situation of a few of us (UK citizens) at the expense of the rest. That "rest" includes a large number family and friends for me.

 

For whatever reason, none of the pro-independence campaigners on here have replied to those posts. Maybe my point is so stupidly flawed that it's not worth addressing...

 

it's not so much flawed as irrelevant. If, by Scotland declaring independence, the fortunes of English people outside the M25 worsen, then that's something that they need to address themselves. The unwillingness of the rest of England to bring London and the south East to heel has been one of the major causes of social and cultural inequality in England. It's their problem to deal with; not ours.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

The Yes campaign are trying to break up a union of hundreds of years, much onus has to be on them to make a case.

 

Aye, a union in much the same way as Terry Waite was united with a radiator in Beirut.

[simplythebest 0]

Aye, a union in much the same way as Terry Waite was united with a radiator in Beirut.

 

What nonsense.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Papa that is not actually 100% true I know quite a few people that were born and bred in Holland but their parents chose to give them British Nationality. They had to carry an immigrants pass and still had to report to the immigration police every 5 years( I believe). It is now different since we are all European but your nationality is given to you by your parents and not your place of birth.

 

It kinda is true, pete. The situation varies from country to country within the EU but in the UK, (from which both England and Scotland would presumably take their citizenship requirements after independence) any child has the right of citizenship if one of their parents is a British citizen or legally settled in the country. Thus if Thinker's child was born in England, that child would be entitled to English Citizenship since Thinker is settled there.

 

The wonderful thing, well one of the many wonderful thing about Scotland after independence, is that anyone living here at the time of independence, anyone born here or anyone with close family here will be entitled to Scottish Citizenship - see us? see inclusive?

 

However, that wasn't really the nub of the point I was making. Irrespective of whether Big Eck gives Thinker's wean a Scottish passport, Thinker's wean, having been born, raised and schooled in England will be English if he decides to continue living there.

 

For example, my Wife's daughter came to Scotland from France when she was a toddler. She grew up, went school, University and employment in Scotland. She is completely as Scottish as you or I, although her passport says French.

[pete 2,499]

It kinda is true, pete. The situation varies from country to country within the EU but in the UK, (from which both England and Scotland would presumably take their citizenship requirements after independence) any child has the right of citizenship if one of their parents is a British citizen or legally settled in the country. Thus if Thinker's child was born in England, that child would be entitled to English Citizenship since Thinker is settled there.

 

The wonderful thing, well one of the many wonderful thing about Scotland after independence, is that anyone living here at the time of independence, anyone born here or anyone with close family here will be entitled to Scottish Citizenship - see us? see inclusive?

 

However, that wasn't really the nub of the point I was making. Irrespective of whether Big Eck gives Thinker's wean a Scottish passport, Thinker's wean, having been born, raised and schooled in England will be English if he decides to continue living there.

 

For example, my Wife's daughter came to Scotland from France when she was a toddler. She grew up, went school, University and employment in Scotland. She is completely as Scottish as you or I, although her passport says French.

 

If French is in her passport then I would imagine no matter how long you have lived in Britain you will always be French. Your passport is the most important document you have and taken as fact.