A dinosaur rears it's head

[54andcounting 0]

I was born in the same hospital as George Alexander Louis..my mother brought me and my brother to Scotland when I was 4 and a half years of age and he was three.

 

We are both 'Scottish' and have always craved an independent Scotland...oh and btw - we also loved that film Braveheart

[simplythebest 0]

I was born in the same hospital as George Alexander Louis..my mother brought me and my brother to Scotland when I was 4 and a half years of age and he was three.

 

We are both 'Scottish' and have always craved an independent Scotland...oh and btw - we also loved that film Braveheart

 

You can't be serious 54, thought better of you.

[Zappa 0]

Yes, but I'm not sure what a 'British identity' actually is?

 

Slightly OT (maybe?), but I just wanted to give a personal example of a 'British identity'....

 

My dad was one of many WWII children born in London, but sent out to a Scottish family for safety via adoption. His father (and my real grandfather on his side) was a special ops wireless operator for British SOE in the war and died in a Nazi death camp called Mauthausen after being captured working with the resistance in France.

 

My mum was born and raised in Scotland and her dad's family were predominantly Scottish, but one side of her family were predominantly English. We visited them down south once almost every year while I was growing up.

 

So my point is that my family history makes me feel just as British as Scottish, perhaps even more so given the overall set of circumstances.

 

I was born in Scotland and I'm Scottish, but clearly, I'm also British.

[54andcounting 0]

You can't be serious 54, thought better of you.

 

Sorry to disappoint stb, an independent Scotland has always been my hope since I was very young never thought I'd ever see it in my lifetime and it might still not happen but I'll never change my mind on it.

Would add arguments for a 'no' vote aren't very convincing either and Papas support for a 'yes' vote are pretty solid and encouraging

 

Scots Wha Hae

[amms 0]

Slightly OT (maybe?), but I just wanted to give a personal example of a 'British identity'....

 

My dad was one of many WWII children born in London, but sent out to a Scottish family for safety via adoption. His father (and my real grandfather on his side) was a special ops wireless operator for British SOE in the war and died in a Nazi death camp called Mauthausen after being captured working with the resistance in France.

 

My mum was born and raised in Scotland and her dad's family were predominantly Scottish, but one side of her family were predominantly English. We visited them down south once almost every year while I was growing up.

 

So my point is that my family history makes me feel just as British as Scottish, perhaps even more so given the overall set of circumstances.

 

I was born in Scotland and I'm Scottish, but clearly, I'm also British.

 

Good reply, thanks. As I think I said in my first post on this thread beyond a geographic term I think it is very hard to define 'British identity' and as such even harder to celebrate.

If I've understood your post your father is English albeit he lived in Scotland from a young age, yes? Your mother is Scottish although she has a lot of English family and she and you have close ties to them.

I'd say a lot of people in Scotland will have similar backgrounds where one parent is from outside Scotland, my children do. So what is being 'celebrated', accidents of birth? I've heard lots of Rangers supporters express anger at Celtic supporters (and players) who celebrate the birthplace of a grandparent in one way or another.

 

Yet for me 'British identity' can't be defined by the place of your birth. Mo Farrah, a Somalian who lives in the USA, and Chris Froome, a Kenyan who lives in Monaco, are genuine current 'British' sporting heroes. I guess I'm not sure singing some very old songs with imperial overtones, (and I fully accept that part of their attraction is the annoyance they bring some other supports) and waving the Union flag with name of a supporters bus on it is actually celebrating British identity. It's really little more than posturing for me.

 

How do you think our support would react if on the first home game of the season on that back wall on the bottom tier of the Copland Road stand the flag of the Irish Republic was pinned on the wall along with the flags of the nationalities of most of our other players? After all Jon Daly has now captained our side twice, he's clearly an integral part of our managers plans and could be an important player for us. Shouldn't we afford him the same welcome we do most other players?

This is part of my issue with the supposed British identity thing. Is it inclusive or exclusive and does it really celebrate what is actually good about 'Britain, both as a geographic term but also in the social or cultural sense.

[Thinker 887]

it's not so much flawed as irrelevant. If, by Scotland declaring independence, the fortunes of English people outside the M25 worsen, then that's something that they need to address themselves. The unwillingness of the rest of England to bring London and the south East to heel has been one of the major causes of social and cultural inequality in England. It's their problem to deal with; not ours.

 

Irrelevant to you maybe, but no so much to anyone who has loved ones in the wider UK (not just England, a lot of bears reading this will have kith and kin in Northern Ireland, a few in Wales I daresay).

 

When I vote in a general election, I want it to to be a vote for the good of all my friends and family, not just the ones North of the border. And I'm not just talking about solving the South/North financial divide. Earlier in this thread Andy put forward the point that he'll be voting for independence because he's unhappy about the war in the Middle East. Completely understandable feelings, but voting for independence won't end the war. The only difference it will make is that none of the poor bastards who get killed will live around these parts. Will that make it any less tragic? For people like me, who have non-Scots-based relatives with their lives on the line it's especially scant consolation. And should Scotland become independent I won't even be able to vote for a party who will end the war. A vote for independence is effectively an abstention on that matter - and you can apply that same principle to many other issues effecting the UK.

 

The well-being of people in other parts of Britain besides Scotland is not irrelevant to me and that's why I wish to retain a vote and a stake in the running of the UK. To my mind there's a fundamental selfishness about independence ("I'm quids in with this oil, the rest of you can sort yourselves out"). That's why I'm against it.

 

If you were ever trying to convince me to vote Yes you failed with that post.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Thinker

[D'Artagnan 173]

Good reply, thanks. As I think I said in my first post on this thread beyond a geographic term I think it is very hard to define 'British identity' and as such even harder to celebrate.

If I've understood your post your father is English albeit he lived in Scotland from a young age, yes? Your mother is Scottish although she has a lot of English family and she and you have close ties to them.

I'd say a lot of people in Scotland will have similar backgrounds where one parent is from outside Scotland, my children do. So what is being 'celebrated', accidents of birth? I've heard lots of Rangers supporters express anger at Celtic supporters (and players) who celebrate the birthplace of a grandparent in one way or another.

 

Yet for me 'British identity' can't be defined by the place of your birth. Mo Farrah, a Somalian who lives in the USA, and Chris Froome, a Kenyan who lives in Monaco, are genuine current 'British' sporting heroes. I guess I'm not sure singing some very old songs with imperial overtones, (and I fully accept that part of their attraction is the annoyance they bring some other supports) and waving the Union flag with name of a supporters bus on it is actually celebrating British identity. It's really little more than posturing for me.

 

How do you think our support would react if on the first home game of the season on that back wall on the bottom tier of the Copland Road stand the flag of the Irish Republic was pinned on the wall along with the flags of the nationalities of most of our other players? After all Jon Daly has now captained our side twice, he's clearly an integral part of our managers plans and could be an important player for us. Shouldn't we afford him the same welcome we do most other players?

This is part of my issue with the supposed British identity thing. Is it inclusive or exclusive and does it really celebrate what is actually good about 'Britain, both as a geographic term but also in the social or cultural sense.

 

 

The sporting heroes point is a good one AMMS - thats pretty darn confusing all told - thought perhaps little different from the footballers who chose the country of representation based upon a fathers or grandfathers place of birth.

 

I dont think however the imperial hyms of which you speak are dont to wind up other supportes _ I think they are done out of a sense of identity - they tend to be popular British anthems - and I suspect they have evolved from their imperialistic meaning. Either that or a group of women with blue rinses are winding up the darkside at Last Night of the Poms !

[andy steel 0]

Slightly OT (maybe?), but I just wanted to give a personal example of a 'British identity'....

 

My dad was one of many WWII children born in London, but sent out to a Scottish family for safety via adoption. His father (and my real grandfather on his side) was a special ops wireless operator for British SOE in the war and died in a Nazi death camp called Mauthausen after being captured working with the resistance in France.

 

My mum was born and raised in Scotland and her dad's family were predominantly Scottish, but one side of her family were predominantly English. We visited them down south once almost every year while I was growing up.

 

So my point is that my family history makes me feel just as British as Scottish, perhaps even more so given the overall set of circumstances.

 

I was born in Scotland and I'm Scottish, but clearly, I'm also British.

 

Don't you feel European, with that history? Not trying to be nosy but that's a hell of an interesting family tale!

[The Real PapaBear 0]

If French is in her passport then I would imagine no matter how long you have lived in Britain you will always be French. Your passport is the most important document you have and taken as fact.

 

A friend of mine was born in Edinburgh in the final month of his father's posting there in the mid 1950s. He returned to Switzerland almost before he could open his eyes. He has a British passport, because at that time you got one automatically if you were born here. Since then he has grown up, lived and worked in Switzerland and has returned to Scotland on holiday only once in the ensuing 60 years. You're telling me he's British?

[The Real PapaBear 0]

You can't be serious 54, thought better of you.

 

See? See? All the cool kids are lining up at the Yes counter. Still time to join us, bud.