A dinosaur rears it's head

[The Real PapaBear 0]

People should also make a clear distinction between nationalism and patriotism.

 

Which nationalism? The flag-waving, chest-thumping, xenophobic big nation nationalism of England and the US or the civic, inclusive small nation nationalism of Canada, New Zealand or Scotland?

 

It may be more helpful to make a distinction between the type of exclusive nationalism aimed at putting other people down and the type of inclusive nationalism aimed at promoting your own country.

 

Come and live in Glasgow, dB, and you get to vote in all of Scotland's elections and referenda. Go to live in England and you'll have to change your nationality before they let you do the same. Now, tell me if it's the UK or Scotland which is 'nationalistic'.

[Thinker 887]

Having said that it strikes me as oxymoronic to say that one is a proud Scot and proud Brit but isn't a nationalist. Pride in your country *is* nationalistic by definition.

 

There's a confusion in terms there. When people talk of not being a Scottish Nationalist what they typically mean is that they're not a supporter of the Scottish National Party and not in favour of an independent Scottish Nation.

 

As you say, you can clearly be a proud Scot without being pro-independence.

[Thinker 887]

Which nationalism? The flag-waving, chest-thumping, xenophobic big nation nationalism of England and the US or the civic, inclusive small nation nationalism of Canada, New Zealand or Scotland?

 

It may be more helpful to make a distinction between the type of exclusive nationalism aimed at putting other people down and the type of inclusive nationalism aimed at promoting your own country.

 

You're talking in broad generalisations there.

 

There are many examples of positive patriotism in England, the UK as a whole, and the US, and plenty of examples of negative Scottish Nationalism.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Thinker

[simplythebest 0]

Which nationalism? The flag-waving, chest-thumping, xenophobic big nation nationalism of England and the US or the civic, inclusive small nation nationalism of Canada, New Zealand or Scotland?

 

It may be more helpful to make a distinction between the type of exclusive nationalism aimed at putting other people down and the type of inclusive nationalism aimed at promoting your own country.

 

Come and live in Glasgow, dB, and you get to vote in all of Scotland's elections and referenda. Go to live in England and you'll have to change your nationality before they let you do the same. Now, tell me if it's the UK or Scotland which is 'nationalistic'.

 

I'm sorry but this is SNP hypocrisy at it's finest. Scottish nationalism all inclusive friendly place yet they're pushing the biggest separatist agenda there's been on these islands for a long time. Political leaders get intimidated by thugs in the capital and anti-English xenophobia is rife.

 

Not to mention that Scots living outside of Scotland can't vote in the referendum, even if they're just across the border.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I'm sorry but this is SNP hypocrisy at it's finest. Scottish nationalism all inclusive friendly place yet they're pushing the biggest separatist agenda there's been on these islands for a long time. Political leaders get intimidated by thugs in the capital and anti-English xenophobia is rife.

 

Not to mention that Scots living outside of Scotland can't vote in the referendum, even if they're just across the border.

 

how in the name of christ can you call an independence party pushing for independence "hypocrisy". The inclusive nature of Scottish nationalism can be seen by the fact that *everyone* who has chosen to live in Scotland gets a vote on independence; If you have chosen to live outside Scotland, you don't get a say in how the country is run.

Your nationality doesn't matter; If you're Polish and live in Scotland, you get to vote. If you're Scottish and live outside, you don't - that is the ultimate in inclusive, open-minded, progressive, civic nationalism!

 

By the way the people who chased away that xenophobic muppet Farage? not scottish nationalists. They were socialists - and one of the two arrested was English. How d'you like them apples?

[Thinker 887]

how in the name of christ can you call an independence party pushing for independence "hypocrisy". The inclusive nature of Scottish nationalism can be seen by the fact that *everyone* who has chosen to live in Scotland gets a vote on independence; If you have chosen to live outside Scotland, you don't get a say in how the country is run.

Your nationality doesn't matter; If you're Polish and live in Scotland, you get to vote. If you're Scottish and live outside, you don't - that is the ultimate in inclusive, open-minded, progressive, civic nationalism!

 

By the way the people who chased away that xenophobic muppet Farage? not scottish nationalists. They were socialists - and one of the two arrested was English. How d'you like them apples?

 

I think the point is that "inclusive nationalism" would be a phrase that a lot people might consider to be oxymoronic. Given that many consider the word "Nationalism" to be interchangeable with "separatism".

 

Personally as a resident of Glasgow, I don't see myself as being especially different from a resident of Manchester or Newcastle. Not better, not worse, not more deserving. My parents live in Ayrshire and they don't see themselves as having different aims or aspirations from those who live in Yorkshire or Cumbria - we're all citizens of a multi-cultural society. My personal view is that Scottish Nationalism is about drawing a thicker, more divisive line across the map and that's not something I'm comfortable with.

[simplythebest 0]

how in the name of christ can you call an independence party pushing for independence "hypocrisy". The inclusive nature of Scottish nationalism can be seen by the fact that *everyone* who has chosen to live in Scotland gets a vote on independence; If you have chosen to live outside Scotland, you don't get a say in how the country is run.

Your nationality doesn't matter; If you're Polish and live in Scotland, you get to vote. If you're Scottish and live outside, you don't - that is the ultimate in inclusive, open-minded, progressive, civic nationalism!

 

By the way the people who chased away that xenophobic muppet Farage? not scottish nationalists. They were socialists - and one of the two arrested was English. How d'you like them apples?

 

Hypocrisy is them playing themselves up as some sort of socialist angels who don't hold any prejudices, yet the point of their whole existence is to promote separatism and break up a union of hundreds of years. Hooray for them letting Polish immigrants vote (I've nothing against immigrants before you start on that), but someone can have lived in Scotland their whole life and just had to recently move down South for work reasons perhaps, yet can't get a say, seems awfully flawed to me especially for this 'all inclusive' government.

 

The nationalities and the political labels of the people involved wasn't the point (not that I doubt nationalists were involved), it happened in Scotland's capital and Alex Salmond refused the opportunity to condemn it irrespective of whatever disagreements there may be on the politics. All inclusive welcoming Scotland indeed. Also, if Farage is a xenophobe for wanting to leave the EU what does that make the SNP for wanting to leave the UK?

[pete 2,499]

I had already made up my mind I would not vote anyway even if I could. I don't see why I should have a say on how people in Scotland should live their lives. I also don't see why people living permanently abroad or in England should have a vote to be honest. Obviously anyone working abroad on a contract should have a say.

[simplythebest 0]

I had already made up my mind I would not vote anyway even if I could. I don't see why I should have a say on how people in Scotland should live their lives. I also don't see why people living permanently abroad or in England should have a vote to be honest. Obviously anyone working abroad on a contract should have a say.

 

You've been in Holland since the 90s correct? Bit different to the type of thing i'm thinking of.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I think the point is that "inclusive nationalism" would be a phrase that a lot people might consider to be oxymoronic. Given that many consider the word "Nationalism" to be interchangeable with "separatism".

 

Personally as a resident of Glasgow, I don't see myself as being especially different from a resident of Manchester or Newcastle. Not better, not worse, not more deserving. My parents live in Ayrshire and they don't see themselves as having different aims or aspirations from those who live in Yorkshire or Cumbria - we're all citizens of a multi-cultural society. My personal view is that Scottish Nationalism is about drawing a thicker, more divisive line across the map and that's not something I'm comfortable with.

 

I do get where you're coming from but I think you have to widen it out a bit. Expand it beyond England.

 

Do you see yourself as different from a resident of Marseilles or Mannheim or Milan? Do you think they want anything different, essentially, to what we and the English want? Clearly not. So using the argument of "we're all basically the same", whilst true, doesn't really get us anywhere. The question is, how can we best achieve what we want to achieve for our country and our children? I believe it is by becoming an independent nation, in charge of our own priorities and building our own culture.

 

If you believe that our childrens' needs are best served by tying ourselves to England; fair enough. I'd love to go through the reasons why this is not the case - albeit in a different forum.