Ibrox: Jurassic Park?

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I think most people will read the foregoing and draw their own conclusions.

 

Mine are that you have made a comment without any substance of foundation and you can neither qualify it or provide any sort of historical source to substantiate it.

 

Several times I have highlighted the relative part - however rather answer you have prevaricated continually.

 

more, how can I put this?... struggles with veracity, not to mention reality

 

You did *not*; of course, highlight the relative part several times; we all know that.

What you finally did (after being asked to do so 6 times) was to come up with what this "definitive conclusion" was supposed to be - and *still* after 8 (count 'em, eight) attempts you *still* haven't said how theses Rangers historians disagree.

[crucible 0]

It was a lot earlier than the early part of the century that we had links to the yards.

 

Relatively early in the clubâ??s history, connections had been formed with the yards. Murray noted that as early as 1886, Walter Crichton, the Rangers secretary, had offered employment at the John Elder shipyard as a sweetener for players considering signing for Rangers.

[D'Artagnan 173]

more, how can I put this?... struggles with veracity, not to mention reality

 

You did *not*; of course, highlight the relative part several times; we all know that.

What you finally did (after being asked to do so 6 times) was to come up with what this "definitive conclusion" was supposed to be - and *still* after 8 (count 'em, eight) attempts you *still* haven't said how theses Rangers historians disagree.

 

Ok once more I will ask you....Im sure you will prevaricate for the umpteenth time

 

"It was the arrival of the Belfast shipbuilders in the early part of the century which saw the British/Protestant/Unionist ethos being fundamentally associated with the club." And why? Because this NI sub-culture, whilst akin, was not exactly the same as the dominant Scottish culture and so they probably felt the need to show themselves to be more British/Protestant/Unionist than we were

 

So perhaps you can tell me why the Rangers Chairman Sir John Ure Primrose shared a political platform with Lord Carson in Glasgow prior to H & W coming over here ?

[The Real PapaBear 0]

It was a lot earlier than the early part of the century that we had links to the yards.

 

Relatively early in the club’s history, connections had been formed with the yards. Murray noted that as early as 1886, Walter Crichton, the Rangers secretary, had offered employment at the John Elder shipyard as a sweetener for players considering signing for Rangers.

 

Very true. And it comes as no surprise, given the location of the stadium, that Rangers had a large following among the shipworkers. The very same shipworkers, by the way, whose militancy resulted in what became known as 'Red Clydeside'.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Ok once more I will ask you....Im sure you will prevaricate for the umpteenth time

 

You're clearly struggling with the normal mode of discourse. *You* claimed my assertion was one which historians disagreed with. It is up to *you* to back up those claims before asking me to do anything of the sort. Now' date=' back that claim up or pack your tents and move on.

 

[b'][/b]

So perhaps you can tell me why the Rangers Chairman Sir John Ure Primrose shared a political platform with Lord Carson in Glasgow prior to H & W coming over here ?

 

I can; because they both shared the same Unionist, British supremacist political viewpoint. Although what that has to do with anything is beyond me.

And moreover Primrose was the original sinner a virulent anti-Irish, anti-Catholic bigot and the biggest disgrace of a man ever to hold office at Ibrox, a man whose bigotry and malevolence disfigured our club for decades after he departed:

 

"Under the leadership of Rangers chairman John Ure Primrose (1912-1923), the club imposed a rigid

“unofficial” sectarian hiring policy in an effort to create and maintain a “Protestant club for a

Protestant people” and to safeguard it from what they deemed “the Irish Catholic menace.”

 

1912-1923? hmm; some may recognise those years as being the time when Harland and Wolff moved to Glasgow.

 

Ach, I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

[amms 0]

You're clearly struggling with the normal mode of discourse. *You* claimed my assertion was one which historians disagreed with. It is up to *you* to back up those claims before asking me to do anything of the sort. Now, back that claim up or pack your tents and move on.

 

 

 

I can; because they both shared the same Unionist, British supremacist political viewpoint. Although what that has to do with anything is beyond me.

And moreover Primrose was the original sinner a virulent anti-Irish, anti-Catholic bigot and the biggest disgrace of a man ever to hold office at Ibrox, a man whose bigotry and malevolence disfigured our club for decades after he departed:

 

"Under the leadership of Rangers chairman John Ure Primrose (1912-1923), the club imposed a rigid

“unofficial” sectarian hiring policy in an effort to create and maintain a “Protestant club for a

Protestant people” and to safeguard it from what they deemed “the Irish Catholic menace.”

 

1912-1923? hmm; some may recognise those years as being the time when Harland and Wolff moved to Glasgow.

 

Ach, I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

 

Where's that quote from RPB?

[chilledbear 16]

You're clearly struggling with the normal mode of discourse. *You* claimed my assertion was one which historians disagreed with. It is up to *you* to back up those claims before asking me to do anything of the sort. Now, back that claim up or pack your tents and move on.

 

 

 

I can; because they both shared the same Unionist, British supremacist political viewpoint. Although what that has to do with anything is beyond me.

And moreover Primrose was the original sinner a virulent anti-Irish, anti-Catholic bigot and the biggest disgrace of a man ever to hold office at Ibrox, a man whose bigotry and malevolence disfigured our club for decades after he departed:

 

"Under the leadership of Rangers chairman John Ure Primrose (1912-1923), the club imposed a rigid

“unofficial” sectarian hiring policy in an effort to create and maintain a “Protestant club for a

Protestant people” and to safeguard it from what they deemed “the Irish Catholic menace.”

 

1912-1923? hmm; some may recognise those years as being the time when Harland and Wolff moved to Glasgow.

 

Ach, I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

 

Different time, different thinking, I don't think he was alone in his views.

[D'Artagnan 173]

You're clearly struggling with the normal mode of discourse. *You* claimed my assertion was one which historians disagreed with. It is up to *you* to back up those claims before asking me to do anything of the sort. Now, back that claim up or pack your tents and move on.

 

 

 

I can; because they both shared the same Unionist, British supremacist political viewpoint. Although what that has to do with anything is beyond me.

And moreover Primrose was the original sinner a virulent anti-Irish, anti-Catholic bigot and the biggest disgrace of a man ever to hold office at Ibrox, a man whose bigotry and malevolence disfigured our club for decades after he departed:

 

"Under the leadership of Rangers chairman John Ure Primrose (1912-1923), the club imposed a rigid

“unofficial” sectarian hiring policy in an effort to create and maintain a “Protestant club for a

Protestant people” and to safeguard it from what they deemed “the Irish Catholic menace.”

 

1912-1923? hmm; some may recognise those years as being the time when Harland and Wolff moved to Glasgow.

 

Ach, I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

 

It shows that there was a considerable Unionist influence at the club prior to H & W's arrival in Govan, and within the club itself, rather than the support, were individuals defining our club's identity and putting strategies in place to ensure it developed.

 

I believe this tends to usurp you earlier assertion...

It was the arrival of the Belfast shipbuilders in the early part of the century which saw the British/Protestant/Unionist ethos being fundamentally associated with the club

[amms 0]

To be fair there was a considerable Unionist influence in Scotland and particularly Glasgow at this time. The term 'North Britain' instead of 'Scotland' was used quite widely for example. But Scottish Unionism differed from 'Irish' Unionism in that there was no real threat to Scottish Unionism here, and as such little need for militancy. I thought it was fairly well accepted that Irish Protestant immigrants working in Govan and Partick started following Rangers due to the ease of travel as opposed to Partick Thistle whose move to Maryhill lost them much of their 'local' support.

Prior to that both clubs shared the immigrant Irish Protestants and Highlanders who came to the city in large numbers in the early 1900s.

I mean couldn't every club bar Celtic and Hibs could have described themselves as having a 'considerable Unionist influence' in their boardroom and probably their support at that time?

[D'Artagnan 173]

To be fair there was a considerable Unionist influence in Scotland and particularly Glasgow at this time. The term 'North Britain' instead of 'Scotland' was used quite widely for example. But Scottish Unionism differed from 'Irish' Unionism in that there was no real threat to Scottish Unionism here, and as such little need for militancy. I thought it was fairly well accepted that Irish Protestant immigrants working in Govan and Partick started following Rangers due to the ease of travel as opposed to Partick Thistle whose move to Maryhill lost them much of their 'local' support.

Prior to that both clubs shared the immigrant Irish Protestants and Highlanders who came to the city in large numbers in the early 1900s.

I mean couldn't every club bar Celtic and Hibs could have described themselves as having a 'considerable Unionist influence' in their boardroom and probably their support at that time?

 

Thats pretty much Prof Graham Walkers line of reasoning AMMS - it was to do with the existing transport links more than anything else.