Possibly one in, two out in January.

[craig 5,199]

The two centre backs picking up the two strikers means we are going one on one every ball surely that is russian roulette. Sorry mate i have only seen teams going one on one if they are pushing for a equaliser or winner if needed. I see it as one of the centre backs needs to cover all defenders. You can play zone as you say and the right centreback covers right and left covers left. The other option is what we have now done is Svensson marking and Hemdani sweeping left and right. For me that is pretty normal but it is only the basic setup there will be times that Hemdani has to mark the CF and that is maybe when it can go wrong.

 

Pete, the CB's always should be picking up the 2 forwards in a 4-4-2 - the two full-backs should be tightening (i.e. getting closer to their respective CB) to provide cover - this then requires the midfielders to close down the opposition midfielders - and it means your CB's are not one-on-one as they have cover from each full-back.

 

I also disagree that a CB should be covering all defenders - that for me would be tactical suicide as he is being asked to basically cover 4 positions (if you include his own as CB)

[pete 2,499]

Pete, the CB's always should be picking up the 2 forwards in a 4-4-2 - the two full-backs should be tightening (i.e. getting closer to their respective CB) to provide cover - this then requires the midfielders to close down the opposition midfielders - and it means your CB's are not one-on-one as they have cover from each full-back.

 

I also disagree that a CB should be covering all defenders - that for me would be tactical suicide as he is being asked to basically cover 4 positions (if you include his own as CB)

 

Again i disagree Craig. that would be so simple for the strikers to create a hole down the middle. Great if the strikers stand next to each other, but they never do.

 

Hutton ------svensson-------Hemdani---------Smith

 

-------------------Striker--Striker------------------

 

Surely that never happens much?

 

----------<<<<<<Hemdani>>>>>>----------

Hutton>>>>>-------Svensson--------<<<<<Smith

----------(Striker)------Striker------(striker)

 

Depending on the side the second striker takes up depends what back covers him. One is almost always in the middle but if both go wide both fullbacks pick them up with the CB's covering the gap behind.

I have never seen in Scotland or Holland the two centrebacks picking up two strikers and the fullbacks covering the space behind them.

 

-----------Fullback-----------------Fullback------

---------------Centreback---centreback------

----------------Striker----------Striker---------

 

Sorry guys that system is new to me.

 

At least one fullback always has to mark a man in my vision.

[stewarty 1,881]

Can I throw a defensive midfielder in to the mix?

[ascender 352]

I have never seen in Scotland or Holland the two centrebacks picking up two strikers and the fullbacks covering the space behind them.

 

At least one fullback always has to mark a man in my vision.

 

But unless you're playing a high defensive line, there won't be space behind them. I thought the two centre halves in any team, more often than not, pick up the forwards, unless you have a situation with an incredibly talented midfielder who needs man marked, but the denfensive midfielder might do this role. The whole team needs to defend and it just keeps the natural shape if they pick up their natural opponent. Obviously full backs go forward and their positions need to be covered by midfielders or defenders.

 

I was just trying to make the point that you can't have a single CB who is supposed to deal with all the high balls. The other one at least needs to be capable in the air and he just isn't at the moment. If you've seen even just a few of our games this season you can see that we're really struggling because we don't have commanding centre halves. I'd put a bet on that more than 50% of the goals we've conceded this season has been down to basic, poor defending and a lack of aerial ability.

 

Again, in a slower paced, more technically proficient league, you might get away with playing a spare man, a true sweeper, but I just don't see it working in the SPL and in the games I've seen, we've certainly not been playing that system which is traditionall a back 3 or back 4, with a true sweeper behind them.

[craig 5,199]

Again i disagree Craig. that would be so simple for the strikers to create a hole down the middle. Great if the strikers stand next to each other, but they never do.

 

Hutton ------svensson-------Hemdani---------Smith

 

-------------------Striker--Striker------------------

 

Surely that never happens much?

 

----------<<<<<<Hemdani>>>>>>----------

Hutton>>>>>-------Svensson--------<<<<<Smith

----------(Striker)------Striker------(striker)

 

Depending on the side the second striker takes up depends what back covers him. One is almost always in the middle but if both go wide both fullbacks pick them up with the CB's covering the gap behind.

I have never seen in Scotland or Holland the two centrebacks picking up two strikers and the fullbacks covering the space behind them.

 

-----------Fullback-----------------Fullback------

---------------Centreback---centreback------

----------------Striker----------Striker---------

 

Sorry guys that system is new to me.

 

At least one fullback always has to mark a man in my vision.

 

Pete, your system is based on having someone cover in behind the CB's and that doesn't happen unless you play a sweeper, in my opinion.

 

When the strikers play further apart (as your first system shows) you have 2 defenders on one striker - eg, the left centre forward is effectively playing between the CB and RB - both CB and RB mark that player - CB should win aerial balls and RB can cover the knockdowns or space in behind if the ball drops over the top.

 

In your system at the bottom that is NOT what I would suggest - you are trying to make it look like the 2 full-backs are sweepers.

 

Your second system is working on having a sweeper and we don't play with a sweeper. However, it is close to what I suggest happens in a flat back four IF you put Hemdani back in there - the full-backs pull across (tighten or narrow the pitch) to assist and pick up loose balls.

 

Also, I am not sure that the strikers play with one central striker and one striker playing on one side of him as that makes the strikers unbalanced, you would effectively have one playing centrally and one playing on the right (or left) which means up front they would be very unbalanced - unless you are using a striker who has a free role, in which case your using Hemdani effectively as a sweeper would work because the central striker would be picked up by Svensson whilst the free role striker could be zonal marked by the full-backs.

 

It is all about opinions and you and I obviously disagree, amicably I would hope

[Super_Ally 0]

Persoanlly I'd rather defenders marked opponents rather than spaces. Spaces aren't going to score goals.

 

Having Hemdani sweeping in a flat back 4 is playing with 10 men and we'll concede plenty of goalscoring opportunities to the opposition.

[pete 2,499]

Persoanlly I'd rather defenders marked opponents rather than spaces. Spaces aren't going to score goals.

 

Having Hemdani sweeping in a flat back 4 is playing with 10 men and we'll concede plenty of goalscoring opportunities to the opposition.

 

Surely a flat back 4 dosn't mean all the defenders stand in one line and let the opposition get in behind us. In my opinion one CB attacks the ball and the other gives cover in the areas behind him. If you play with a double CH then normally one takes a left zone and the other a right zone If the ball is on the right then the left CB gives cover behind with the Left fullback also coming off the wing to an area roughly in line with the 16 mtr line to give extra cover.

Rangers have nearly always played with one CH attacking the ball and a soort of sweeper.

Ronnie Mckinnon attacking the ball - Dave smith sweeping behind

Colin Jackson attacking the ball - Tom Forsyth covering behind

I never seen many games with Gough and Butcher but i would imagine Butcher attacked the ball with Gough giving cover and the same with Roberts and Butcher.

Amoruso also played slightly behind craig Moore i am sure

I still can't imagine two fullbacks not marking anyone and the centrebacks one on one. That would indeed make us very vulnurable through the middle. It would mean if the two strikers are 30 yards apart our central defenders are 30 yards apart, surely that can't be true

[Super_Ally 0]

Surely a flat back 4 dosn't mean all the defenders stand in one line and let the opposition get in behind us. In my opinion one CB attacks the ball and the other gives cover in the areas behind him. If you play with a double CH then normally one takes a left zone and the other a right zone If the ball is on the right then the left CB gives cover behind with the Left fullback also coming off the wing to an area roughly in line with the 16 mtr line to give extra cover.

Rangers have nearly always played with one CH attacking the ball and a soort of sweeper.

Ronnie Mckinnon attacking the ball - Dave smith sweeping behind

Colin Jackson attacking the ball - Tom Forsyth covering behind

I never seen many games with Gough and Butcher but i would imagine Butcher attacked the ball with Gough giving cover and the same with Roberts and Butcher.

Amoruso also played slightly behind craig Moore i am sure

I still can't imagine two fullbacks not marking anyone and the centrebacks one on one. That would indeed make us very vulnurable through the middle. It would mean if the two strikers are 30 yards apart our central defenders are 30 yards apart, surely that can't be true

 

 

But Pete the FB's aren't "marking noone". The opposition will attack with more than just the two forwards. The FB's will take the wide players with the CB's picking up the guys playing in their ares usually the two forwards.

 

You're are right about the strikers if they play wide then the fb picks him up, but then another attacking player would move into the space left by the attacker and its up to the cb to pick him up.

[pete 2,499]

But Pete the FB's aren't "marking noone". The opposition will attack with more than just the two forwards. The FB's will take the wide players with the CB's picking up the guys playing in their ares usually the two forwards.

 

You're are right about the strikers if they play wide then the fb picks him up, but then another attacking player would move into the space left by the attacker and its up to the cb to pick him up.

 

Ally i am talking about the basic 4-4-2 setup when say the keeper has a bye-kick. In my way of thinking if every midfielder picks up his man which he should then that leaves 4 against 2, one central defender is used as a man-marker and one full back should pick up the second striker depending on which side he has taken up. That leaves a central defender to give cover to the other CB and the two fullbacks. Obviously things change in a game with midfielders coming through where the CB's will both have a man and that is where the fullbacks then have to offer back cover by moving in tighter.

As i see Rangers playing at the moment then Svensson has been given the job as man-marker and Hemdani is taking up the sweeper role. I feel he is playing that role exellently since he came in and as i have said before he really does break up a lot of dangerous situations by having the vision to cut them out before they really get dangerous. Yes he does have some defensive weaknesses but he is new to that position and i believe that he can get better with a defensive coach helping him. Just my opinion

[Super_Ally 0]

Well I think we'll have to leave it there becasue I cannot see how you can deploy a sweeper in a flat back 4 and think Hemdani has been woeful at defending, in fact i'm not sure i;ve seen him doing nay.