Poor attendances suggest Celtic need Rangers

[pete 2,499]

To be honest I wish Green had done more to find out about us joining the English league instead of accepting to be a substandard Scottish product without any say on TV rights or anything else. I realise he had to act quick to please his investors but I am sure he could have done more. We have to get back into the SPL or whatever it is called to get back into Europe but otherwise I would say: Stuff You!

[amms 0]

We have an inability to talk about this without getting bogged down in a 'they need us more than we need them debate'. We look at Celtic and our hatred for them is so deep that some of us don't want to play them again: ever.

 

Where did this bizarre mentality come from? Should we only play clubs that we respect, like or admire? Are Celtic just too nasty to confront on a football pitch now? Are we afraid of them?

 

Is anyone seriously suggesting that the mind-numbing boredom of our situation last season and this is more satisfying than a square-go against Celtic in the top division? If they are, they are saying that risk-free football without tension and uncertainty is better than games where elation is the reward for victory and despair is the price of defeat.

 

Samuel Johnson once said that if a person is tired of London, he is tired of life. With this in mind, I would suggest that if a Rangers supporter is tired of the Old Firm contest, he is tired of hard-edged competitive football.

 

Let's stop the kidding. Let's look forward to locking horns again with Celtic. We don't need to like them, but we should relish squaring up to them.

 

You make some interesting points. I'm one of those who has said publicly I'd be happy if we never have to play them again. I don't think I'm afraid of them although I do think we could get a serious beating from them just now if we weren't careful. But it's not that, i'd welcome a match against Real Madrid or Manchester City and I'm fairly sure I know how the result would go against either of those two. I accept being beaten by Real or Man City is different from being beaten by 'them' though.

 

Prior to our demise I was one of the naive people who held the view that football fans are basically all the same. Despite our choice of club to support I always maintained that the average supporter has much in common with his opposite number in the 'away' end. When Hibs were in difficulty in the 90s I happily contributed to their collecting cans. I've never charged a penny more than face value for tickets I needed to sell including on a number of occasions 'away end' tickets for Dundee Utd, Hampden and Parkhead. Whilst I've frequently chanted 'we are the people' I've never actually believed it was true.

So the reaction of so many supporters at other clubs to our difficulties genuinely came as a shock to me. I can say in all honesty I take no pleasure in football clubs difficulties, I didn't celebrate Celtic's near demise in the 90s, on the contrary I was genuinely saddened, mainly for friends of mine who I could see were hurting from it.

The realisation that Rangers and their support, and so me, were hated by so many stunned me. I assumed when it came to serious stuff like the survival of a football club all supporters would empathise and think 'there but for the grace of God'. How wrong was I.

 

The concept of writing blogs about a club you don't support baffles me. That these blogs are/were written by educated people and done with the sole purpose of destroying and demonising my football club appalled me. I can accept that in the grand scheme it was a small number of people involved but they were consumed, enjoyed and used by thousands of people. They were passed around as gospel and used to further the demise of a football club. That fucks with my head, it really does.

 

So I came to the conclusion that I don't want to be a part of this anymore. Football, and Rangers in particular, is an escape from my mundane life. An opportunity to shout abuse at talented, fit and popular athletes, the antithesis of who I am. To admire real skill, strength, character, will power and to feel the power that being part of a larger crowd gives you, that fellowship you have with others if only for 90 minutes, that thrill and short lived high victory brings. The reasons I thought we all follow football. I don't want to be associated with people who hate my club more than they love their own; I'm different from them.

 

Am I bitter? Yes, I suppose I am now. I simply don't want anything to do with them, I don't want to see them or hear them. I don't want to be part of Scottish football anymore, that's a huge shift for me personally. It's clearly not about football for so many other club's supporters and I don't want any part of that.

 

I have accepted that we're not going to leave Scotland now, that chance has gone. However I'm uncomfortable with playing against sides who wanted to kill us. For those reasons I don't want to see Celtic ever again, I'd genuinely be happy if we never had to play them again. The fact they seem to be missing us more than we're missing them is ironic but no surprise, clearly we're what defines them.

[Mountain Bear 0]

We have an inability to talk about this without getting bogged down in a 'they need us more than we need them debate'. We look at Celtic and our hatred for them is so deep that some of us don't want to play them again: ever.

 

Where did this bizarre mentality come from? Should we only play clubs that we respect, like or admire? Are Celtic just too nasty to confront on a football pitch now? Are we afraid of them?

 

Is anyone seriously suggesting that the mind-numbing boredom of our situation last season and this is more satisfying than a square-go against Celtic in the top division? If they are, they are saying that risk-free football without tension and uncertainty is better than games where elation is the reward for victory and despair is the price of defeat.

 

Samuel Johnson once said that if a person is tired of London, he is tired of life. With this in mind, I would suggest that if a Rangers supporter is tired of the Old Firm contest, he is tired of hard-edged competitive football.

 

Let's stop the kidding. Let's look forward to locking horns again with Celtic. We don't need to like them, but we should relish squaring up to them.

 

Well said Hildy.

[Mountain Bear 0]

You make some interesting points. I'm one of those who has said publicly I'd be happy if we never have to play them again. I don't think I'm afraid of them although I do think we could get a serious beating from them just now if we weren't careful. But it's not that, i'd welcome a match against Real Madrid or Manchester City and I'm fairly sure I know how the result would go against either of those two. I accept being beaten by Real or Man City is different from being beaten by 'them' though.

 

Prior to our demise I was one of the naive people who held the view that football fans are basically all the same. Despite our choice of club to support I always maintained that the average supporter has much in common with his opposite number in the 'away' end. When Hibs were in difficulty in the 90s I happily contributed to their collecting cans. I've never charged a penny more than face value for tickets I needed to sell including on a number of occasions 'away end' tickets for Dundee Utd, Hampden and Parkhead. Whilst I've frequently chanted 'we are the people' I've never actually believed it was true.

So the reaction of so many supporters at other clubs to our difficulties genuinely came as a shock to me. I can say in all honesty I take no pleasure in football clubs difficulties, I didn't celebrate Celtic's near demise in the 90s, on the contrary I was genuinely saddened, mainly for friends of mine who I could see were hurting from it.

The realisation that Rangers and their support, and so me, were hated by so many stunned me. I assumed when it came to serious stuff like the survival of a football club all supporters would empathise and think 'there but for the grace of God'. How wrong was I.

 

The concept of writing blogs about a club you don't support baffles me. That these blogs are/were written by educated people and done with the sole purpose of destroying and demonising my football club appalled me. I can accept that in the grand scheme it was a small number of people involved but they were consumed, enjoyed and used by thousands of people. They were passed around as gospel and used to further the demise of a football club. That fucks with my head, it really does.

 

So I came to the conclusion that I don't want to be a part of this anymore. Football, and Rangers in particular, is an escape from my mundane life. An opportunity to shout abuse at talented, fit and popular athletes, the antithesis of who I am. To admire real skill, strength, character, will power and to feel the power that being part of a larger crowd gives you, that fellowship you have with others if only for 90 minutes, that thrill and short lived high victory brings. The reasons I thought we all follow football. I don't want to be associated with people who hate my club more than they love their own; I'm different from them.

 

Am I bitter? Yes, I suppose I am now. I simply don't want anything to do with them, I don't want to see them or hear them. I don't want to be part of Scottish football anymore, that's a huge shift for me personally. It's clearly not about football for so many other club's supporters and I don't want any part of that.

 

I have accepted that we're not going to leave Scotland now, that chance has gone. However I'm uncomfortable with playing against sides who wanted to kill us. For those reasons I don't want to see Celtic ever again, I'd genuinely be happy if we never had to play them again. The fact they seem to be missing us more than we're missing them is ironic but no surprise, clearly we're what defines them.

 

Amms, I totally understand your feelings and I too was shocked by the sheer depth of animosity we faced in our hour of need.

 

On reflection I think part of that situation can be explained by a relatively small group of zealots spreading the myth that we were cheats, to the point where it became the accepted truth, even among the ordinary supporters of other teams. However, we need to be realistic and accept that for decades we lorded it over Scottish football and the "we are the people" and "if they spend a fiver, we'll spend a tenner" mentality wound other teams' supporters up no end. So, in their view, like seeing the playground bully finally getting his comeuppance, they wanted to see us humiliated and hamstrung. But to die? I'm not so sure.

 

The "your not Rangers any more" chants are designed to rile us and I dare say some do mean it, but most of the Celtic fans I speak to don't want us dead and I detect a certain softening in attitude among several of my acquaintences following the various commission verdicts which have (essentially) found in our favour over the past 2 years.

 

Is it possible that people say one thing to your face and something completely different when they are anonymous in a crowd or online? Of course it is, but I'm pretty sure that the majority want us back and competitive pronto.

 

The bottom line for me is that the next time we beat them will be right up there with 5:1 at Ibrox or winning the league at Parkhead, perhaps even sweeter. These are the moments that football supporters crave and if we have to wait a while for that, or take a few defeats on the way, then so be it.

 

I'm not obsessed or defined by them, but if we want to get back to the top of the Scottish game, they are the team to beat and we should welcome that challenge.

 

If they are bitter, then we display our difference through continued focus on our love for our Club and a refusal to hate them. I don't think anything we could do would annoy them more.

 

If they bait us, we can be confident enough in the facts to smile and not rise to it.

 

And if I'm wrong and the majority did want us to die, then they failed and we can take great satisfaction from that.

 

Let's see what the demand for tickets is like when we're next paired with them. I suspect that will tell us all we really need to know about what they think.

[amms 0]

Yip, you speak a of of sense, I'll mull it over.

[Hildy 0]

That's a decent response, amms, which is welcome because the point of view that I hold isn't popular within the uber-branch of the Rangers support.

 

Football fans develop a pack instinct and outwardly express hatred and dislike for almost everyone they confront, and when they come on to internet message boards, they tend to carry extreme opinions with them for fear of being perceived as a degree or two less than staunch.

 

A quick browse around the Rangers sections of the internet when it first became clear a few years ago that Hearts were heading for trouble was an embarrassing experience. Well over 90% of views expressed hoped that Hearts would go under because, somehow, it served them right. I didn't get it then and I don't get it now.

 

In some respects then, you are right, football fans are mostly the same, but of course rivalry, especially ours with Celtic, is so deep-rooted and longstanding that hatred isn't a strong enough term to describe its lowest manifestations. In the real world, though, we mix, converse, inter-marry, and socialise even though our government - to its eternal shame - continues to fund educational separation.

 

This idea that they are so despicable now that we can't breathe the same air and compete against one another is a form of intolerance. Their extremist wing takes this same view; that we are so evil and immoral that they would rather we disappeared altogether - but these people are narrow-minded, bile-ridden, first degree, hardcore bigots. So consumed are they with anti-Protestant hatred, that they genuinely believe that they are morally superior. Leave them to their intolerance. It's where they live. It surely isn't where we live.

 

The perception that some of us have that our present situation is pure and wonderful is delusion off the scale. Watching paint dry is only marginally worse than watching Rangers toiling against part-time teams and full-time journeymen.

 

Our club needs to fly high. Our support needs it to fly high. We need the satisfaction of competing and winning instead of merely winning. We need a rival to make the prize worth it. When Celtic are with us and we triumph, we feel like world champions. When there is no rival to match us, our world is empty and devoid of a sense of achievement. Maybe this is why we latched on to going through the season winning every game. It gave us an extra interest even though it was no big deal. Rangers fans crowing about a third tier winning run? That's how bad things are.

 

We need a rival, and our rival is Celtic. We cannot run from that. It's time to face up to it.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[pete 2,499]

Absolutely fantastic debating guys. That really is what makes the Gersnet a class apart.

[Zappa 0]

Amms, I totally understand your feelings and I too was shocked by the sheer depth of animosity we faced in our hour of need.

 

On reflection I think part of that situation can be explained by a relatively small group of zealots spreading the myth that we were cheats, to the point where it became the accepted truth, even among the ordinary supporters of other teams. However, we need to be realistic and accept that for decades we lorded it over Scottish football and the "we are the people" and "if they spend a fiver, we'll spend a tenner" mentality wound other teams' supporters up no end. So, in their view, like seeing the playground bully finally getting his comeuppance, they wanted to see us humiliated and hamstrung. But to die? I'm not so sure.

 

The "your not Rangers any more" chants are designed to rile us and I dare say some do mean it, but most of the Celtic fans I speak to don't want us dead and I detect a certain softening in attitude among several of my acquaintences following the various commission verdicts which have (essentially) found in our favour over the past 2 years.

 

Is it possible that people say one thing to your face and something completely different when they are anonymous in a crowd or online? Of course it is, but I'm pretty sure that the majority want us back and competitive pronto.

 

The bottom line for me is that the next time we beat them will be right up there with 5:1 at Ibrox or winning the league at Parkhead, perhaps even sweeter. These are the moments that football supporters crave and if we have to wait a while for that, or take a few defeats on the way, then so be it.

 

I'm not obsessed or defined by them, but if we want to get back to the top of the Scottish game, they are the team to beat and we should welcome that challenge.

 

If they are bitter, then we display our difference through continued focus on our love for our Club and a refusal to hate them. I don't think anything we could do would annoy them more.

 

If they bait us, we can be confident enough in the facts to smile and not rise to it.

 

And if I'm wrong and the majority did want us to die, then they failed and we can take great satisfaction from that.

 

Let's see what the demand for tickets is like when we're next paired with them. I suspect that will tell us all we really need to know about what they think.

 

I agree with most of your points Crawford and what you've said generally reflects my own point of view as well. The main thing I would add to what you've said is that the "small group of zealots spreading the myth that we were cheats" were actually primarily people in the mainstream Scottish media promoting sensationalist nonsense to sell newspapers and promote a frenzy amongst the radio phone-in brigade.

 

Rangers going into administration was like manna from heaven for the Scottish media because it was the biggest and most controversial talking point they had been given in literally decades. Obviously it would be foolish and naive to try to place all of the blame at the doors of the Scottish media, but the red top rag pack certainly played a major part in creating the hysteria and blood lust phenomena we saw in such abundance because they know fine well that dullards are easily led.

 

The media's sensationalist antics were to be fully expected though because that's just who and what they are, it pretty much defines them. What I didn't expect though and I doubt if very many people did, was for the SPL and the SFA to essentially hand the decision making process to the fans of our opponent clubs and our club's enemies. That for me was utterly scandalous because our case should have been dealt with in a sensible fashion by the people running Scottish football, not legions of bampots wielding long knives with our name on them.

[pete 2,499]

I agree with most of your points Crawford and what you've said generally reflects my own point of view as well. The main thing I would add to what you've said is that the "small group of zealots spreading the myth that we were cheats" were actually primarily people in the mainstream Scottish media promoting sensationalist nonsense to sell newspapers and promote a frenzy amongst the radio phone-in brigade.

 

Rangers going into administration was like manna from heaven for the Scottish media because it was the biggest and most controversial talking point they had been given in literally decades. Obviously it would be foolish and naive to try to place all of the blame at the doors of the Scottish media, but the red top rag pack certainly played a major part in creating the hysteria and blood lust phenomena we saw in such abundance because they know fine well that dullards are easily led.

 

The media's sensationalist antics were to be fully expected though because that's just who and what they are, it pretty much defines them. What I didn't expect though and I doubt if very many people did, was for the SPL and the SFA to essentially hand the decision making process to the fans of our opponent clubs and our club's enemies. That for me was utterly scandalous because our case should have been dealt with in a sensible fashion by the people running Scottish football, not legions of bampots wielding long knives with our name on them.

 

Another excellent post and I can only agree with whole heartedly. It was like everybody having a punch until we were on our knees and then Whyte delivering a lethal kick to our balls to finish us off.

[bossy 0]

I hate Celtic more than I ever have and I am certainly not missing the games against them. Of course we want to play top class football but the place to do that is in Europe. If Celtic were to disappear without trace tomorrow I personally would not shed a tear.

 

And, from the short time I spent posting on Pie & Bovril, I don't have a lot of time for the fans of any of the other teams either. You would have difficulty in finding a more narrow minded, poisonous and bigoted bunch of people.

 

My main regret is that we have not found a way out of the cesspit that is Scottish football.