One Scotland, Many Cultures & 2 Tier "Justice"

[Thinker 851]

See, if you hadn't put that first part in, I'd be agreeing with most of what you write. Outside of academic studies of Irish history I have never, and I mean never, heard the F word used in a non-sectarian context. Hun, as you say, covers the range from familial footballing contempt to naked sectarian bigotry and its use is much more difficult to identify as being sectarian at any given time. I do suspect, however, that had sectarianism been O'Hara's motivation, he would have joined the Labour party (remember them?) rather than the SNP

 

Whether it harms the SNPs reputation outside of the Rangers bubble is open to debate after last night's astonishing result.

 

Celtic fans self-apply the term. For example they called Samaras "the Athenian ******". Should any Celtic fan using that phrase have been prosecuted? If the answer is no, then the term does have acceptable, non-sectarian usage.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Thinker

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Celtic fans self-apply the term. For example they called Samaras "the Athenian ******". Should any Celtic fan using that phrase have been prosecuted? If the answer is no, then the term does have acceptable, non-sectarian usage.

 

You mean like the word n*gger is an acceptable word for black people to use but not white people?

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I thought that you said it had become unacceptable? How can it always have been acceptable?

 

When you say it's always been acceptable, are you referring to those who complained about it 10 years ago? Was it acceptable to them then?

 

If it was unacceptable 10 years ago then it proves that your statement is totally wrong and the whole premise of your argument is wrong.

 

The fact is that it's always been acceptable to you perhaps due to either ignorance of the use of the word or lack of interest but to thousands of other Rangers fans it has always had a sectarian meaning and has always been unacceptable.

 

 

 

 

So it's a sectarian insult to call a Hearts fan it but not a Rangers fan? Wow.

 

That's because Hearts are known as a mainly Protestant team whereas Rangers aren't? No, that's not it........

 

I think you're proving my argument for me.

 

 

There's no pretence on this subject just ignorance.

 

Where you are correct is that fen'ian has been used to describe RCs a lot longer than hun has been used to describe Protestants. However when hun did start getting used in that way then it instantly became unacceptable. When it was subsequently used to describe Rangers fans that didn't suddenly make it OK.

 

 

You seem to be doing a fine job of inventing stuff for me to say and then cleverly disproving the stuff you've just invented. I'll let you get on with it.

[Thinker 851]

You mean like the word n*gger is an acceptable word for black people to use but not white people?

 

A bit - although the Samaras example isn't exactly self-application.

 

Is it okay for me to call Samaras the Athenian ******?

 

I don't want to get side-tracked by an N word debate, but that's a fine example of hypocrisy. If a term is unacceptable, self-application is just as bad. Anyone who does undermines the argument against its use.

[Bluedell 5,329]

Outside of academic studies of Irish history I have never, and I mean never, heard the F word used in a non-sectarian context.

 

Wow again. I've heard it a lot. For example, I've heard Anthony Stokes called a fen'ian in connection with some of his pastimes, by people who don't know or care if he's a RC. A religious RC woman I worked with called her son one in a non footballing example.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Bluedell

[Bluedell 5,329]

You seem to be doing a fine job of inventing stuff for me to say

What stuff?

 

and then cleverly disproving the stuff you've just invented.

What stuff? I haven't invented anything.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

A bit - although the Samaras example isn't exactly self-application.

 

Is it okay for me to call Samaras the Athenian ******?

 

I don't want to get side-tracked by an N word debate, but that's a fine example of hypocrisy. If a term is unacceptable, self-application is just as bad. Anyone who does undermines the argument against its use.

 

Side tracked? It's central to your argument. I think we're all agreed that the N word is entirely unacceptable for us to use. And yet, we'll happily listen to rap music by black artists where every second word seems to be the N word. If white artists outside the rap scene (and 90% within it) used it, the roof fall in on them.

 

Maybe you should write to 50 Cent and let him know that it's unacceptbale for him to use the term

[der Berliner 3,196]

Not sure what people are debating on right now. It is and always has been about context. The Scum using the word in their very own faux-Irish meaning and essentially only refer to the rebel and terror gang. Not by default Roman Catholics (someone can go out and check their various supporters clubs sporting that name and verify whether they are all hardcore RCs), and surely not that ancient Irish race wrongly Angliziced, i.e. the feni. This could actually be verified by any journo worth half his job. If I denote the Scum as F'enians, I solely and only refer to both the terror gang and their supporters. Not any Irish chap or ideal or "race" (why should I?), nor any Catholic.

 

I can't tell what a) the broader public in Scotland and/or Ulster thinks, nor can I tell what the Rangers support or any individual think. I have always promoted the idea that WE, be that club or supporters, should clearly say what we mean when we use certain words. For what we have seen in recent years is that other people have told us what we mean and imply and sing about and why. And most of those people did that with a special purpose in mind, be it politics, be it hatred, or some other private (or public) agenda.

 

We have failed magnificently dealing with that, for much of the outcry happened - and still happens - on fanboards. And what happens there has next to no influence where these things matter. That the club has been woefuly silent and dignified did not help matters either and you would hope that this will change in the not too distant future.

Edited May 8, 2015 by der Berliner

[craig 5,195]

Side tracked? It's central to your argument. I think we're all agreed that the N word is entirely unacceptable for us to use. And yet, we'll happily listen to rap music by black artists where every second word seems to be the N word. If white artists outside the rap scene (and 90% within it) used it, the roof fall in on them.

 

Maybe you should write to 50 Cent and let him know that it's unacceptbale for him to use the term

 

Is this not the argument that it would be ok for Celtic fans to call themselves fen!ans but not Rangers (of or other club's fans) ?

 

By which token it is OK for Rangers fans to call themselves Huns but nobody else should ?

 

I didn't realize O'Hara was a closet Ger.

[Thinker 851]

Side tracked? It's central to your argument. I think we're all agreed that the N word is entirely unacceptable for us to use. And yet, we'll happily listen to rap music by black artists where every second word seems to be the N word. If white artists outside the rap scene (and 90% within it) used it, the roof fall in on them.

 

Maybe you should write to 50 Cent and let him know that it's unacceptbale for him to use the term

 

I say side-tracked because, even though I could discuss it at length, it's a mile off-topic for a Rangers Chat topic.

 

But okay though (Disclaimer: I AM NOT A RACIST). Using the N word pejoratively in order to insult a black person is obviously out-of-line, but I actually think (and I may be in the minority here) that it's kind of self-defeatingly discriminatory that 50 Cent can use the term in an ironic jokey way, but a white artist can't. It's an example of society completely losing the ability to see the context and the intent of the usage in a grown-up way. If I was to sing a 50 Cent song at the karaoke which included the offending word would I be a racist? I'll never do it, because I'm certain that if I did, someone would give me a hard time about it - even though I doubt Fiddy himself would give a shit. IMHO the right-or-wrong of it should be defined by the context, not the user and until such a time as that's the case, we won't have solved the problem.

 

Anyway - a further example of the F word being used in a non-offensive, non-sectarian way: I remember Billy Connolly doing a skit about the street hawkers around the Barras shilling pens to passers-by "A blue yin for a blue-nose! A green yin for a ******!" Is that offensive? Does it depend on the religion of the seller? To my mind the word only becomes offensive when preceded by, for example, "dirty" or followed by "bastard". Once again, it's all about context.