colinstein 294 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 fan ownership would secure the club forever 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Have to admit to being ignorant to the problems with the disabled facilities. And i cant really disagree with anything you say, you are bang on about 75k being more useful to the club than some unknown entity that sold 300k shares. But having seen what has happened the past few years i like taking this defensive approach by building up a decent shareholding that should prevent these things happening again in the future. To be honest if C1872 decided to change tact and start giving the money to the club then i for one would stop my contribution. I cant really explain it well with words to rightly defend myself for this decision. Like i said this is a long term game for me and I like the idea in the future of having a significant portion of the club fan owned. Club 1872 don't need to "give" the cash to the Club though. They can sit on it till there is a share issue and then get their shareholding that way. King is a believer in fan representation and partial ownership anyway so in the event of a share issue he would find a way to allow Club 1872 to increase its shareholding beyond a rights issue. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeardyGuts 6 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 75k in the clubs hands is still better than ZERO in the club's hands and 75k in the hands of a disinterested 3rd party. It may "only" be 75k, but what if Club 1872 do the same thing 10 times for 750k ? The quantum isn't the issue here, it is the principle. 18 months ago we had charlatans running the Club so purchasing on the open market made sense. Now we have good custodians looking after the Club's best interests - therefore there is little need, at this point, to purchase in the open market - better to have that money going into the Club when a share issue is made. If it is "only" 75k then why even bother making the purchase ? Why not just wait if it is no big deal ? It wouldn't be handing money over to D. King and co - it would be an investment into the Club - surely you see the preference of that rather than the money going to a 3rd party with no emotional interest in the Club whatsoever ? And you are, by deduction, saying that you would rather Club 1872 bought the shares on the open market rather than give the money to King ?? Which means that Club 1872 increases its shareholding (which is great) but that the Club get ZERO of the funds used to purchase (which is terrible). Just looking at your "20%" number - you do realise that by purchasing the way they have been, Club 1872, if that 75k was equivalent to 1% shareholding (which it wont be, that is VERY conservative) then getting to 20% is another 14 such purchases - which is 1.05 million.... not quite so small now huh ? You are arguing on the one hand that this isn't much of a purchase and the Club couldn't do much with it - and then arguing that Club 1872 should look to increase their shareholding..... which automatically means, right now, that the 75k becomes a far bigger number. Every single penny that is invested should end up in the Club's hands IMHO - not the hands of outsiders. The Club isn't in the same danger from "investors" therefore the urgency isn't there anymore - so this was a purchase that wasn't necessary. Sorry spotted Bluedell's reply before yours. The bulk of my reply there applies in this case too. The first point is moot, they didnt buy 750k of shares, they bought 75k so the point remains. What would the club do with 75k if handed over? Who decides? Who has control over it? This is my issue here, sure if the disabled facilities need upgraded i would happily give money to a vehicle that was setup to collect money for such an improvement... but this isnt the point of C1872. Its fair enough that you dont like that the 75k was given to a third party... and i agree that ideally we want this money in the club. But again this is not the point of C1872. I want the supporters to have a big say in the future of the club and as history has shown us that simply being supporters means little. In the future when that position is secured sure use the money for various initiatives and set up something that allows at least some control on where the money goes but for now, at least for me which appears to be the minority, i would like to see a big fan position on the board. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeardyGuts 6 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Club 1872 don't need to "give" the cash to the Club though. They can sit on it till there is a share issue and then get their shareholding that way. King is a believer in fan representation and partial ownership anyway so in the event of a share issue he would find a way to allow Club 1872 to increase its shareholding beyond a rights issue. I'm not a financial expert by any strecth of the imagination but in any share issue, the shareholders (as far as i understand) need to be given the opportunity to maintain there same shareholding level. So assuming I am right on that, then after a share issue nothing changes C1872 will maintain there 6% shareholding and money has gone into the club. Which is great but it still doesnt get C1872 closer to the goal of being a big shareholder. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I am afraid I am with Beardyguts on this one. Shareholders can change in minutes. I would still not be surprised if Ashely or someone of his ilk try to regain power. I agree in a perfect world C1872 would be buying shares from the club and thus putting money into it but this is far from a perfect world and there are still a hell of a lot of shares in the enemies hands. It does not take too much imagination that one of Ashelys cohorts would be swallowing up any shares coming on the market. Don't forget the 3 knights don't have that many shares themselves they are depending on other shareholders to cover their tail. Ashely had a guaranteed 26% of the voting so he only needed to persuade 15% to come round to him. These figures may no longer be 100% correct with all the share sales but the danger is still present in my opinion. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Sorry spotted Bluedell's reply before yours. The bulk of my reply there applies in this case too. The first point is moot, they didnt buy 750k of shares, they bought 75k so the point remains. What would the club do with 75k if handed over? Who decides? Who has control over it? This is my issue here, sure if the disabled facilities need upgraded i would happily give money to a vehicle that was setup to collect money for such an improvement... but this isnt the point of C1872. Its fair enough that you dont like that the 75k was given to a third party... and i agree that ideally we want this money in the club. But again this is not the point of C1872. I want the supporters to have a big say in the future of the club and as history has shown us that simply being supporters means little. In the future when that position is secured sure use the money for various initiatives and set up something that allows at least some control on where the money goes but for now, at least for me which appears to be the minority, i would like to see a big fan position on the board. So you won't be buying a ST as you don't know where they will spend the money then ? Sounds like a very strange stance to me. Seems that you just don't trust the current custodians, as is your prerogative. That 75k has now left the Club one way or the other. And that is NOT good. There is absolutely NO NEED at this point to be purchasing shares from 3rd parties. Between King, T3B and the fans groups along with other friendly investors the Ashley/Easdale bloc has been largely neutered. The chances of that changing is remote in the near future. You knee asserting that Club 1873 would be "giving" the money to the Club but not one person who disagrees with you here is saying that. They are all saying that the 75k is lost to the Cluvlb because the purchase was outside of a share issue. Mentioning the disabled facilities is a red herring because Bluedell's point was that had they waited to invest that money directly into the Club then the Club had an extra 75k to use on infrastructure. With this love it is money lost to the Club. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthter 542 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 If C1872 want to increase their shareholding, where are the shares to come from if not from 3rd parties???? Also, the club has technically already received the cash for those shares. As for C1872 giving £75k to the club....what mechanisms are in place for this to happen. I'm pretty sure you'r not allowed to simply walk in the door & hand over a £75k cheque. Club1872 ultimately want to have a say in how the club is run, that can ONLY be done by increasing the shareholding. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeardyGuts 6 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 So you won't be buying a ST as you don't know where they will spend the money then ? Sounds like a very strange stance to me. Seems that you just don't trust the current custodians, as is your prerogative. That 75k has now left the Club one way or the other. And that is NOT good. There is absolutely NO NEED at this point to be purchasing shares from 3rd parties. Between King, T3B and the fans groups along with other friendly investors the Ashley/Easdale bloc has been largely neutered. The chances of that changing is remote in the near future. You knee asserting that Club 1873 would be "giving" the money to the Club but not one person who disagrees with you here is saying that. They are all saying that the 75k is lost to the Cluvlb because the purchase was outside of a share issue. Mentioning the disabled facilities is a red herring because Bluedell's point was that had they waited to invest that money directly into the Club then the Club had an extra 75k to use on infrastructure. With this love it is money lost to the Club. ST comparison is not relevant at all... i know what i am getting for my money... i buy a ST and I see the games. I give a contribution to C1872 and they buy up shares.... I dont want to argue back and forth all day because we clearly have a difference of opinion on this one. We obviously both want what is best for the club i feel the best way to achieve that is to get a significant fan shareholding to protect the club long term rather than giving money or not doing anything which will achieve short term goals but do nothing to protect the club for generations. Our club shouldnt be relying on the fans to donate money to improve infrastructure, this should be budgeted for. We have had a number of years where the previous regimes left our stadium to go to ruin but now with the current board we should start seeing this gradually improve. If we dont then maybe we have the wrong people at the helm. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I'm not a financial expert by any strecth of the imagination but in any share issue, the shareholders (as far as i understand) need to be given the opportunity to maintain there same shareholding level. So assuming I am right on that, then after a share issue nothing changes C1872 will maintain there 6% shareholding and money has gone into the club. Which is great but it still doesnt get C1872 closer to the goal of being a big shareholder. You are partially correct but you are also missing or ignoring my last sentence "to increase its shareholding beyond a rights issue". In a rights issue if someone doesn't take up their rights they can be taken up by another party. Club 1872's shareholding is easy to deal with. If there are unallocated shares then they could purchase them at that point. If all shares are allocated and the desire is to still see an increased shareholding then they can purchase some shares from King to increase that shareholding. There are many ways to skin a cat !! 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 If C1872 want to increase their shareholding, where are the shares to come from if not from 3rd parties???? Also, the club has technically already received the cash for those shares. As for C1872 giving £75k to the club....what mechanisms are in place for this to happen. I'm pretty sure you'r not allowed to simply walk in the door & hand over a £75k cheque. Club1872 ultimately want to have a say in how the club is run, that can ONLY be done by increasing the shareholding. Any organization can make a donation so long as it came from legal means.. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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