Ongoing new manager discussion and speculation

[craig 5,199]

Unless the financial circumstances are very different to what I can see (not to mention the board getting their act together) then 2nd place is as good as it will get for at least 2/3 years.........I don't think you should make an appointment looking further than 2/3 years down the track.

 

It's not only the ability of a manager that's the issue, it's the money to support him and then you have a celtic who are currently flush and could simply up go out and bring in more quality, if needed.

 

There needs to be a recognition that it'll take time to get back on track and getting to a level where we can overhaul celtic.

 

IMO if we continually look to take short-cuts, looking to win the title 'now' then we'll take longer to win it than if we build towrads it.

 

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All that said, who is your choice ?

 

To be honest I am not sure it makes a huge amount of difference who my choice would be. It is presently a poisoned chalice and one which ANY manager would struggle to coach us out of.

 

You are more than likely right about 2nd being as good as it gets for 2 or 3 years - but do we believe that McInnes would bring in, or implement, the appropriate structure in the background to have us challenging at the end of that period ? I remain to be convinced that he has created a structure to improve the footballing department at Aberdeen - because, for me, if we solely look at the manager and the first team then we can almost forget catching Celtic - financially they are out of our league - which means to catch them we need a better footballing infrastructure which allows us to develop our youth and give them chances so that we don't need to spend multiples of millions.

 

And maybe my issue is that whilst I see McInnes as a safe appointment I just don't see him being the one to be able to see us leapfrog Celtic and, as I said, I am not even sure anybody could given the financial disparity - maybe I am just dreaming that we can bring in a coach who can get more from the sum of the parts than the individuals - similar, to be fair, to what Celtic did when replacing Deila with Rodgers.

 

Who would my choice be ? I would take Pep Guardiola - the issue we have is that our last two managers have failed (Warburton got us promoted but then failed miserably at the top level) and we can't afford another mistake, especially if the Board are funding their "war chest" to the tune of 8-10 million - and because we can't afford another mistake we likely will end up in the safe hands of McInnes.

 

Preud'homme would be interesting to me - but even that would be more because he isn't plying his trade in Scotland so, you would expect, his teams would be technically more proficient.

Potter too has done very well - but is the step up to Rangers too big for him ?

 

I suspect that there have been many applications... but almost all wouldn't be suitable for this position right now. Sadly.

 

I agree about "short cuts" but if McInnes is the man then how would that be the longer term option ? If we sacrifice the short term for the longer term benefit (which we should) then the longer term needs to be root and branch improvement in the footballing department - does McInnes have experience of doing this ? I genuinely don't know... is his experience just coaching/managing the first team ? Because if so that is little better than the short term approach. Players will come and go from the first team - without the appropriate infrastructure the club will continue to struggle.

Edited November 29, 2017 by craig

[buster. 5,132]

To be honest I am not sure it makes a huge amount of difference who my choice would be. It is presently a poisoned chalice and one which ANY manager would struggle to coach us out of.

 

You are more than likely right about 2nd being as good as it gets for 2 or 3 years - but do we believe that McInnes would bring in, or implement, the appropriate structure in the background to have us challenging at the end of that period ? I remain to be convinced that he has created a structure to improve the footballing department at Aberdeen - because, for me, if we solely look at the manager and the first team then we can almost forget catching Celtic - financially they are out of our league - which means to catch them we need a better footballing infrastructure which allows us to develop our youth and give them chances so that we don't need to spend multiples of millions.

 

And maybe my issue is that whilst I see McInnes as a safe appointment I just don't see him being the one to be able to see us leapfrog Celtic and, as I said, I am not even sure anybody could given the financial disparity - maybe I am just dreaming that we can bring in a coach who can get more from the sum of the parts than the individuals - similar, to be fair, to what Celtic did when replacing Deila with Rodgers.

 

Who would my choice be ? I would take Pep Guardiola - the issue we have is that our last two managers have failed (Warburton got us promoted but then failed miserably at the top level) and we can't afford another mistake, especially if the Board are funding their "war chest" to the tune of 8-10 million - and because we can't afford another mistake we likely will end up in the safe hands of McInnes.

 

Preud'homme would be interesting to me - but even that would be more because he isn't plying his trade in Scotland so, you would expect, his teams would be technically more proficient.

Potter too has done very well - but is the step up to Rangers too big for him ?

 

I suspect that there have been many applications... but almost all wouldn't be suitable for this position right now. Sadly.

 

I agree about "short cuts" but if McInnes is the man then how would that be the longer term option ? If we sacrifice the short term for the longer term benefit (which we should) then the longer term needs to be root and branch improvement in the footballing department - does McInnes have experience of doing this ? I genuinely don't know... is his experience just coaching/managing the first team ? Because if so that is little better than the short term approach. Players will come and go from the first team - without the appropriate infrastructure the club will continue to struggle.

 

Re, building footballing operation structure: That would be the remit of a DoF, eg. scouting infrastructure is being put in place.

 

Over the decades, I've heard of grand plans for X and Y that nearly never come to anything because the short-term ends up demanding more attention (and finance)....but we now reach a juncture (extent of gulf between us and them) that I've never known.

There isn't the finance to hope to leap over the chasm, so surely we need to think of longterm plans, get the right people to implement them and move forward, allbeit more slowly than we would like.

 

As far as the manager is concerned, I guess it shouldn't be that long now and we'll just have to wait and see who it is.

[craig 5,199]

Re, building footballing operation structure: That would be the remit of a DoF, eg. scouting infrastructure is being put in place.

 

Over the decades, I've heard of grand plans for X and Y that nearly never come to anything because the short-term ends up demanding more attention (and finance)....but we now reach a juncture (extent of gulf between us and them) that I've never known.

There isn't the finance to hope to leap over the chasm, so surely we need to think of longterm plans, get the right people to implement them and move forward, allbeit more slowly than we would like.

 

As far as the manager is concerned, I guess it shouldn't be that long now and we'll just have to wait and see who it is.

 

The gulf we now see is because people almost refused to see beyond the immediacy of winning the league. People (including fans) wanted, nay demanded, we spend money on the first team... "Who cares how the reserves or kids are doing, we want to win the big trophies" when, had we even a medium term perspective, we would have invested in the infrastructures of the club instead. Scouting, youth development, use of technology, sports science, nutritionists etc etc - all of which whilst being a financial cost.... can either save you money longer term (a youth breaks through to the senior team ala Alan Hutton) or makes you a bundle of money by being re-sold (again, ala Alan Hutton).

 

If you look at Fergie's Man U - much of the reason that he had success over the extended period of time that he was there was not because of their ability to outspend everyone but, rather, the ability to not have to spend a ton of money on every position - they could dedicate higher transfer fees on fewer players - because their youth system was producing players like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Neville brothers etc etc etc etc. Those boys saved them a ton of money in transfer fees. But they also were good enough. We need THAT type of infrastructure - one which sees Celtic spending 3 million on a right back but where we have a better right back who came through the youths. Just look at Tierney - came through their ranks and they will get a decent amount of money for him when he eventually goes. We need that.

 

So I agree wholeheartedly about the need to have longterm plans - but those long term plans, IMHO, require a manager who also buys into that ethos - because bringing through younger players will only happen with a manager prepared to play them. Would McInnes ? I don't know. Does he have a reputation for improving the players that he inherits or has been coaching for a period of time ? I genuinely don't know the answer to that either.

 

But we need a manager who can improve the players he would inherit at Rangers (which will be difficult for some players ), a manager who can actually instill a mental tenacity and determination in them rather than watching the same old timidity every time we lose a goal, a manager who wouldn't be afraid to play a youngster if they deserved it. You will never know how good they are until you give them the opportunity to prove you right or wrong.

 

If our new manager is Derek McInnes then, as I said earlier, he will have my full, unequivocal support as would any Rangers manager. I just have a nagging doubt that he would progress us much as a club and as a team. I have, admittedly, little basis for that doubt but I can't shake it.

 

Unashamedly, whoever the new manager is, I would like to see them bring Kevin Thomson in as part of his backroom staff - someone who has the drive, determination, desire and will to be the best - someone who would never accept half-hearted efforts from anyone, but who gets that very point across in a way where they would still be respected for blasting the player. And also a very good coach too, who coaches pro youths from various clubs in the central belt and who was the Hibs U20 Development team coach a couple of years ago.

[buster. 5,132]

Young players should only be played by first team manager if they are good enough....It's really more down to the scouting dept. to find them, the academy to develop them and the club to keep a hold of the right ones.

 

McInnes regularly plays McKenna (21 year old centre half) and sometimes, Wright (20 year old forward) because they are good enough, not because they are youngsters.

 

Improving players would be a novelty, over the decades it hasn't happened enough at Ibrox. We've tended to throw money at problems, lose half of it, move on, then repeat it. Had we been better run as a football club when we had money, we could have done so much more in Europe.

 

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edit

I note that McKenna was on loan to Ayr Utd last season.

McCrorie was on loan to the same club the season before.

Ian McCall being manager

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see both McKenna and McCrorie both play for Scotland sometime in the future.

Edited November 29, 2017 by buster.

[calscot 0]

After seeing the lack of success of big investments into youth development, it always seems more of a lottery than a science.

 

I can't see what we can do much differently than what other teams are doing, and we've tried many times. Judging by the spread of success throughout all the sides in Scotland, I've thought for a while that it would probably be cheaper just buying up the best around, like we used to do.

 

That Man U team was a one off, a true lottery win. They haven't done it since as far as I know.

 

Actually looking at the dearth of talent in Scotland these days, a more mercenary approach would be to look abroad for players like Morelos or better.

[craig 5,199]

Young players should only be played by first team manager if they are good enough....It's really more down to the academy to produce them and the club to keep a hold of them.

 

McInnes regularly plays McKenna (21 year old centre half) and sometimes, Wright (20 year old forward) because they are good enough, not because they are youngsters.

 

Improving players would be a novelty, over the decades it hasn't happened enough at Ibrox. We've tended to throw money at problems, lose half of it, move on, then repeat it. Had we been better run as a football club when we had money, we could have done so much more in Europe.

 

-----------------

 

edit

I note that McKenna was on loan to Ayr Utd last season.

McCrorie was on loan to the same club the season before.

Ian McCall being manager

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see both McKenna and McCrorie both play for Scotland sometime in the future.

 

Indeed they need to be good enough. Which, as you see from my Man U analogy, I gave examples of quality youngsters and said "But they were also good enough". Of course they need to be good enough.

 

Does McInnes play those two because they are good enough or because he has no other options ? I am not asking that to downplay McInnes doing so, but taking our own young McCrorie as an example - the lad looks like a mainstay but had it not been for multiple injuries to regulars he wouldn't have had his chance by now, regardless of how the others were playing. Yet he actually looks, that one mistake aside, to be our best defender. If McInnes is playing them for the simple reason that they are the best he has then great, that is the ethos we need.

 

We have been pretty poor at improving players at Rangers, I would agree. But we have had our moments too. And I couldn't agree more that we have thrown money at our problems rather than solve them. Which is partly why we find ourselves where we are. We were throwing money at short term solutions (1st team playing squad) instead of investing in the infrastructure that would have allowed us to spend less on the first team as we would have had youngsters being produced who would graduate to the senior team. Too much of a short-term view at our club across the board, including us fans who are too impatient for success.

 

I cant say I have seen much of McKenna as I don't watch Aberdeen - however, I will be very, very surprised if McCrorie doesn't become a full international - indeed, if he keeps up present form I can see it happening inside 2 years.

[buster. 5,132]

Indeed they need to be good enough. Which, as you see from my Man U analogy, I gave examples of quality youngsters and said "But they were also good enough". Of course they need to be good enough.

 

Does McInnes play those two because they are good enough or because he has no other options ? I am not asking that to downplay McInnes doing so, but taking our own young McCrorie as an example - the lad looks like a mainstay but had it not been for multiple injuries to regulars he wouldn't have had his chance by now, regardless of how the others were playing. Yet he actually looks, that one mistake aside, to be our best defender. If McInnes is playing them for the simple reason that they are the best he has then great, that is the ethos we need.

 

We have been pretty poor at improving players at Rangers, I would agree. But we have had our moments too. And I couldn't agree more that we have thrown money at our problems rather than solve them. Which is partly why we find ourselves where we are. We were throwing money at short term solutions (1st team playing squad) instead of investing in the infrastructure that would have allowed us to spend less on the first team as we would have had youngsters being produced who would graduate to the senior team. Too much of a short-term view at our club across the board, including us fans who are too impatient for success.

 

I cant say I have seen much of McKenna as I don't watch Aberdeen - however, I will be very, very surprised if McCrorie doesn't become a full international - indeed, if he keeps up present form I can see it happening inside 2 years.

 

You'll see McKenna tonight (he usually keeps Mark Reynolds on the bench). A big 21 year old who is built a bit like Doug Rougvie.

 

Wright is on the fringes (473 minutes of league football this season) and from what I have seen, has talent and will have a decent career.

[craig 5,199]

After seeing the lack of success of big investments into youth development, it always seems more of a lottery than a science.

 

I can't see what we can do much differently than what other teams are doing, and we've tried many times. Judging by the spread of success throughout all the sides in Scotland, I've thought for a while that it would probably be cheaper just buying up the best around, like we used to do.

 

That Man U team was a one off, a true lottery win. They haven't done it since as far as I know.

 

Actually looking at the dearth of talent in Scotland these days, a more mercenary approach would be to look abroad for players like Morelos or better.

 

For a start we could have been doing without Sinclair heading up the youth department. Was only interested in winning and, to do so, was more than happy to just bring in kids who were physical brutes, rather than technical players.

 

There are things you can do, and teams are doing some of these things, including us thankfully. Watford, for example, have all of their Academy players educated at one particular school so that they don't have logistical nightmares for training - the coaches go to them instead of the kids going to the club. Saves time. Rangers are doing that to a lesser extent with the educational partnership we have with a Glasgow school.

 

Rangers also use sports science on the kids, they also have video analysis of games where the kids get video feedback of each game along with an individualized video of their moments in the game. The club also have started using bio-banding whereby a kid will play in a group dependent on their physical ability to do so. Leon King for example, who is a fine young player, is big, strong and can be physical (but also very talented) so he plays "up" a year all the time and it has helped his development (elfideldo could expand I am sure).

 

Believe it or not, Rangers youth department is doing more but spending less under the current regime. There most certainly have been improvements since Warburton's tenure started at the club and Mulholland and his team deserve plaudits for that. With the youth structure it isn't always about producing the next Messi ten times, it is more about augmenting your purchasing of players with a few of decent quality within your own ranks. Unfortunately Scottish football will struggle in this regard anyway because, as we saw with Gilmour, the bright lights of an EPL team will see you lose your best for next to nothing - and it is hard to begrudge that of the player themselves - I have it on reasonably good authority that Gilmour, for example, is on about 14k a week at Chelsea.

 

Man U haven't done it since because it can be cyclical and also that the structure changed too with regards to travel times to training for kids. But some are still successful with it, not necessarily in the UK but in Europe. Barcelona, for example, sold a 16 yr old called Eric Garcia Martret to Man City for 2 million in the summer. If we can get those kind of sums from our youths then the program will pay for itself. Even better if they stay and establish themselves in the first team. You don't need a full team of youths to come through - you need 1 or 2 each year if you can, and more is a bonus. McCrorie looks like being this season's one and he could save us a chunk of change in bringing someone else in, but he also immediately knows what it means to play for Rangers.

 

Sinclair WAS buying a bunch of youth players cal, but he almost invariably squandered it and released the players within a year or two, as elfideldo would tell you. If you mean buying the best of Scottish players for the senior team then we also know that those goalposts have moved - Scottish clubs despise dealing with us these days and often flat out refuse to sell us a player - and if they do they increase the fee to a point it is barely worth it.

[craig 5,199]

You'll see McKenna tonight (he usually keeps Mark Reynolds on the bench). A big 21 year old who is built a bit like Doug Rougvie.

 

Wright is on the fringes (473 minutes of league football this season) and from what I have seen, has talent and will have a decent career.

 

Hopefully I will see them tonight. Game kicks off 3.45pm my time so am hoping to skip out of work early to watch the game

[buster. 5,132]

Hopefully I will see them tonight. Game kicks off 3.45pm my time so am hoping to skip out of work early to watch the game

 

Hopefully you see the worst of them !