VanguardBears are to join protests against Glasgow City Council

[D'Artagnan 173]

4 hours ago, JohnMc said:

My point Bluedell is that no one is working for us, the best we get is ambivalence, and the worst is people who clearly dislike us and make it quite well known. Why is that? Why are there no votes, or at least why is the perception there are no votes, for politicians in being publicly pro-Rangers? 

To me, these threads come across as some posters using it to have a go at the SNP, to underline their own political beliefs. The SNP didn't invent it, it's been around for a couple of decades now across all political stripes. 

 

For me you're not identifying the problem at all, the issue isn't Susan Aitken being a dick on Facebook chat, it's why someone like Susan Aitken feels that's acceptable, indeed maybe desirable. In the end she's doing what the people in power before her also did, and they had a very different political belief. For me, if you want to fix this, you need to address why we have no political capital no matter who is in power. 

You're making this about the SNP, it's not about them, it's much bigger than that.

I'd say John both Murdo Fraser and Adam Tomkins have made their Rangers allegiances quite clear, but its symptomatic of the point you make that in recent times it was Ulster politicians such as Jeffrey Donaldson who could be relied upon to further Rangers interests in the political forum

[D'Artagnan 173]

14 hours ago, Gaffer said:

I understand what you're saying here, but anti-independence is a single issue that will be important to some people and not to others.  I look around all politically parties and they each stand for something that I find distasteful to say the least.  No one can claim to own the moral high ground when the parties you vote for are advocating action that negatively affects other people.  You can name any party at the moment and I'll give you examples of things that I find extremely damaging to our society.  Let's see who then sits back and who does something about it.  The FACT is that there isn't single party I'm aware of that can inhabit the moral high ground so many people on here, including you, then have to decide to either not vote (as is my decision), or vote for the least worst option.

 

For SNP voters on here, I'd certainly expect them to be aware of the attitude that some of its members have towards the club.  However, who am I (or who are you) to decide if that consideration is more important than other issues they may hold dear?  For Labour voters, I'd expect them to consider the fact that Corbyn is regarded as having sympathies towards certain terrorist groups and is actively trying to disregard the BrExit democratic process, but again if they decide to vote in that direction they will have weighed up the options and on balance decided that it's the least worst option.  The same applies to all other parties I can think of, and please don't get me started on the Greens.

 

I bet that almost all SNP voters on here will be frustrated, annoyed, or even furious at the treatment of our club by members of the party they vote for.  I certainly haven't seen anyone defend what they've done, but maybe I've missed that.  This is our football team's forum so understandably people like you and me will point out the corruption and bias towards our team, and there are certainly plenty of examples coming from various SNP politicians.  If it was a political discussion forum there isn't a single person on here who could defend their party against the bias and corruption in other more (in my opinion) important issues.

 

Thankfully Rangers attracts supporters from all backgrounds and that's a strength we have.  Just as @Billhas the right to make the interests of our club his most important consideration when voting, others have the right to make other issues (i.e. Non football related) their most important.  I cannot understand why anyone would have a problem in respecting that.

 

This thread is now brilliantly demonstrating the point I was trying to make earlier.  By us fighting internally we are losing focus on who the real enemy is.  The Biased Bhouys Corporation and certain political figures (most notably within GCC at the moment) are where our attention should be, and not on trying to condemn our own fans.

I would concur Gaffer that there is a myriad of things we can point out which we find distasteful or hypocritical in politicians of other parties, but that is a  world away from deliberate and malicious action targetted  against our club. and following the fanzone debacle, as well as other instances, the SNP have been shown to be guilty as charged.

[Gaffer 1,665]

18 minutes ago, D'Artagnan said:

I would concur Gaffer that there is a myriad of things we can point out which we find distasteful or hypocritical in politicians of other parties, but that is a  world away from deliberate and malicious action targetted  against our club. and following the fanzone debacle, as well as other instances, the SNP have been shown to be guilty as charged.

We can agree that there are SNP politicians who are guilty of malicious actions against our club.  But can we also agree that there are Labour, Tory, Green and other politicians who are guilty of malicious actions against us in other ways, and ways that perhaps some people (like me) feel are more important than the football club we support?

 

There are too many people on here with their own political agendas and only want to point the finger at one party.  That's what spoils the debate on here, and it obscures the real problem which @JohnMc has tried to raise.

 

My main problem with this thread however is the suggestion that people should put the interests of the club above all else in their lives, and therefore not vote for politicians who would do Rangers harm, no matter what damage the alternatives will do to their families, friends, jobs, and colleagues.  For most people on this forum, Rangers is important but nowhere near the most important consideration when voting.

 

I think ALL political parties are hypocrites and biased on a range of much more important issues, and in my opinion you are all guilty of hypocrisy for pointing the finger at our supporters who would choose to vote in a different way to you.

 

I am now going to bow out of this.  I love reading/posting about Rangers and only came on this thread because it annoys me when the hypocrisy is targeted at our own fans.  To me, that's just not acceptable.  But as anyone on here knows, I can't stand the current crop of politicians and would certainly never vote for any party at the moment.  I thought that made me suitable to take a neutral role in this, but clearly not.

 

I'm heading off to the other threads to talk about the Rangers.

[Gonzo79 13,548]

It's important we focus on each organisation that demonstrates continually negative actions when it comes to Rangers.

 

The SNP and BBC Scotland are the main two at the moment.  Anyone who doubts that or keeps asking for evidence either has an agenda or is completely ignorant.

 

Do other Scottish clubs fly the Union Flag over their grounds?  Do other Scottish clubs fans wave lots of Union Flags?  Do other Scottish clubs fans sing Rule Britannia, GSTQ and a plethora of other Unionist songs and chants, including many about Ulster?  It is no wonder the SNP and their voters dislike us.  Particularly in light of their ranks being swelled by people who sympathise with and support Irish Republicanism.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Gonzo79

[buster. 4,808]

15 hours ago, Gaffer said:

I understand what you're saying here, but anti-independence is a single issue that will be important to some people and not to others.  I look around all politically parties and they each stand for something that I find distasteful to say the least.  No one can claim to own the moral high ground when the parties you vote for are advocating action that negatively affects other people.  You can name any party at the moment and I'll give you examples of things that I find extremely damaging to our society.  Let's see who then sits back and who does something about it.  The FACT is that there isn't single party I'm aware of that can inhabit the moral high ground so many people on here, including you, then have to decide to either not vote (as is my decision), or vote for the least worst option.

 

For SNP voters on here, I'd certainly expect them to be aware of the attitude that some of its members have towards the club.  However, who am I (or who are you) to decide if that consideration is more important than other issues they may hold dear?  For Labour voters, I'd expect them to consider the fact that Corbyn is regarded as having sympathies towards certain terrorist groups and is actively trying to disregard the BrExit democratic process, but again if they decide to vote in that direction they will have weighed up the options and on balance decided that it's the least worst option.  The same applies to all other parties I can think of, and please don't get me started on the Greens.

 

I bet that almost all SNP voters on here will be frustrated, annoyed, or even furious at the treatment of our club by members of the party they vote for.  I certainly haven't seen anyone defend what they've done, but maybe I've missed that.  This is our football team's forum so understandably people like you and me will point out the corruption and bias towards our team, and there are certainly plenty of examples coming from various SNP politicians.  If it was a political discussion forum there isn't a single person on here who could defend their party against the bias and corruption in other more (in my opinion) important issues.

 

Thankfully Rangers attracts supporters from all backgrounds and that's a strength we have.  Just as @Billhas the right to make the interests of our club his most important consideration when voting, others have the right to make other issues (i.e. Non football related) their most important.  I cannot understand why anyone would have a problem in respecting that.

 

This thread is now brilliantly demonstrating the point I was trying to make earlier.  By us fighting internally we are losing focus on who the real enemy is.  The Biased Bhouys Corporation and certain political figures (most notably within GCC at the moment) are where our attention should be, and not on trying to condemn our own fans.

Excellent post Gaffer !

All it needs beyond this particular disagreement, is a little bit of respect instead of ..'you are either with us or against us' ..style rhetoric

 

Our propensity to confront, including within our own ranks has been shown to be very damaging. One angle of damage that is seldom mentioned is that it will put off a lot of our fans from putting their head above the parapet regards active participation. For this reason I think a lot of talented and savvy individuals don't want to know when it comes to representing the club/fans groups, etc. in football politics. This contrasts to the other side of the city where a deeprooted rebellious culture means that all levels tend to put themselves forward for the fight. 

 

The result is that they are better at it than us and we are always playing catch-up.

 

My hope was/is that Club1872 could grow into something that would eventually see us bridge this particular divide, we'll see....

 

 

[JohnMc 2,463]

10 hours ago, D'Artagnan said:

I'd say John both Murdo Fraser and Adam Tomkins have made their Rangers allegiances quite clear, but its symptomatic of the point you make that in recent times it was Ulster politicians such as Jeffrey Donaldson who could be relied upon to further Rangers interests in the political forum

It's also telling that Tomkins is English and Fraser from Inverness, rather than the west of Scotland where the bulk of the population actually live, both are 'list' MSPs rather than constituency elected too. 

There will probably be a couple more if we really looked but it's a poor return from a possible 188 MPs and MSPs. 

[JohnMc 2,463]

1 hour ago, Gonzo79 said:

It's important we focus on each organisation that demonstrates continually negative actions when it comes to Rangers.

 

The SNP and BBC Scotland are the main two at the moment.  Anyone who doubts that or keeps asking for evidence either has an agenda or is completely ignorant.

 

Do other Scottish clubs fly the Union Flag over their grounds?  Do other Scottish clubs fans wave lots of Union Flags?  Do other Scottish clubs fans sing Rule Britannia, GSTQ and a plethora of other Unionist songs and chants, including many about Ulster?  It is no wonder the SNP and their voters dislike us.  Particularly in light of their ranks being swelled by people who sympathise with and support Irish Republicanism.

Don't you think many people can separate those aspects of Rangers from the rest of their lives? I'm old enough to remember going to Ibrox on a Saturday and singing GSTQ then going to Hampden on a Wednesday for a Scotland match and booing GSTQ when it was played as the Scottish national anthem. That probably sounds ridiculous today, and for good reason, but I wasn't alone in that. The bulk of the Scotland crowd was made up of Rangers supporters in those days and they could sing and boo GSTQ without having an identity crisis, l suspect a lot of them still can. 

 

I accept the point you're making and agree the more hardline Scottish nationalists probably do find the trappings of Ibrox anathema to them. However, there are thousands of 'soft' nationalists, people who now vote SNP because they tired of Labour, they felt their lives weren't improving or they bought into Salmond or Sturgeon over McConnell and Dugdale. For a lot of them, and I know quite a few like that, they are Rangers supporters at the same time. 

[Bluedell 5,329]

15 hours ago, JohnMc said:

My point Bluedell is that no one is working for us, the best we get is ambivalence, and the worst is people who clearly dislike us and make it quite well known. Why is that? Why are there no votes, or at least why is the perception there are no votes, for politicians in being publicly pro-Rangers? 

To me, these threads come across as some posters using it to have a go at the SNP, to underline their own political beliefs. The SNP didn't invent it, it's been around for a couple of decades now across all political stripes. 

 

For me you're not identifying the problem at all, the issue isn't Susan Aitken being a dick on Facebook chat, it's why someone like Susan Aitken feels that's acceptable, indeed maybe desirable. In the end she's doing what the people in power before her also did, and they had a very different political belief. For me, if you want to fix this, you need to address why we have no political capital no matter who is in power. 

You're making this about the SNP, it's not about them, it's much bigger than that.

Having a go at those who seek to damage Rangers, in this case the SNP may well be part of a bigger issue. However all I'm doing here is looking at this example.

 

When I was on a supporters organisation board, which consisted of Tories from both sides of the party, Labour voters from both sides of the party and an SNP voter, we certainly made efforts to address the bigger picture. Inroads were made to an extent but that was all pre-2012 and most of the gains are probably now lost. It's now up to the younger generation to have a go at it, and although I'm not going to be involved, it shouldn't preclude me from criticising individual issues without having to address the bigger picture.

[cooponthewing 1,139]

16 minutes ago, JohnMc said:

However, there are thousands of 'soft' nationalists, people who now vote SNP because they tired of Labour, they felt their lives weren't improving or they bought into Salmond or Sturgeon over McConnell and Dugdale. For a lot of them, and I know quite a few like that, they are Rangers supporters at the same time. 

That’s a good point to be fair. It will also be those same “floating voters” who now see the current SNP admin for what they are, that kick them out at the ballot box at the next election.

[numberoneallover 4]

we do need Rangers people in politics