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3 hours ago, alexscottislegend said:

90% of Catalans voted for independence - 90%! Self-determination is a human right. Try telling Barca supporters they are not Catalans first. Even their language was banned under the fascists.

90% of Catalans “did not” vote for independence. Those that would have voted no did not acknowledge it and only Yes voters attended polling stations. I’m guessing you knew this already. This was an illegal quasi referendum, that was nothing more than  a coup or political mutiny by republican, Catalan pirates.

 

My initially post wasn’t serious btw, it does seem like I have gained a passion for the dramatic though........?

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If you choose not to vote, if you boycott a referendum whether 'illegal' or not, then you cannot complain about the result, or you don't care either way. However you slice it there is a clear majority in Catalonia for independence, much bigger than in Scotland for example. It is also a protest against the authoritarian nature of the Spanish state (a state still with remnants of the Franco fascist years) which sees any divergence of views as a challenge. And the leaders were not jailed for terrorism but for sedition, quite different. 

As I write the El Clasico game has been postponed; that tells you something. Democracy is in danger everywhere; there are parallels with Hong Kong here.

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3 hours ago, alexscottislegend said:

If you choose not to vote, if you boycott a referendum whether 'illegal' or not, then you cannot complain about the result, or you don't care either way. However you slice it there is a clear majority in Catalonia for independence, much bigger than in Scotland for example. It is also a protest against the authoritarian nature of the Spanish state (a state still with remnants of the Franco fascist years) which sees any divergence of views as a challenge. And the leaders were not jailed for terrorism but for sedition, quite different. 

As I write the El Clasico game has been postponed; that tells you something. Democracy is in danger everywhere; there are parallels with Hong Kong here.

Can you complain about a referendum even when you clearly lose?

 

Also, with both the previous administration that was centre left and now a socialist government, neither will submit to a portion of the country announcing unilateral independence in an illegal referendum. Polls before this referendum actually show a majority want to stay in Spain....ring any bells?

 

Also can you tell me exactly where the remnants of the Franco years exist please?  I have been to Spain many times for business and holidays, so not sure in what context you are talking about. 

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10 minutes ago, ChelseaBoy said:

Can you complain about a referendum even when you clearly lose?

 

Also, with both the previous administration that was centre left and now a socialist government, neither will submit to a portion of the country announcing unilateral independence in an illegal referendum. Polls before this referendum actually show a majority want to stay in Spain....ring any bells?

 

Also can you tell me exactly where the remnants of the Franco years exist please?  I have been to Spain many times for business and holidays, so not sure in what context you are talking about. 

Reference Franco, his remains have recently been disinterred from the Valley of Heroes, and presented to his daughter(in her 90s) for private reburial.

 

Franco's legacy is the Gardia Civil, they remain a hopelessly overarmed para-military force. Why would a Police force need light mortars, medium machine guns, and armoured cars? In saying this, the French, Italians, Portuguese, ........... etc; all have national forces designed to subjugate the general population. Nationalists love a national police force.

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58 minutes ago, 26th of foot said:

Reference Franco, his remains have recently been disinterred from the Valley of Heroes, and presented to his daughter(in her 90s) for private reburial.

 

Franco's legacy is the Gardia Civil, they remain a hopelessly overarmed para-military force. Why would a Police force need light mortars, medium machine guns, and armoured cars? In saying this, the French, Italians, Portuguese, ........... etc; all have national forces designed to subjugate the general population. Nationalists love a national police force.

Yes, saw the above was happening following a court case, and also know that many EU counties have a heavily armed (compared to the UK and Ireland) national force as well as regional and local forces, but neither point supports the previous statement made that Spain has any remnants of Franco's regime active. 

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On 18/10/2019 at 15:56, 26th of foot said:

Reference Franco, his remains have recently been disinterred from the Valley of Heroes, and presented to his daughter(in her 90s) for private reburial.

 

Franco's legacy is the Gardia Civil, they remain a hopelessly overarmed para-military force. Why would a Police force need light mortars, medium machine guns, and armoured cars? In saying this, the French, Italians, Portuguese, ........... etc; all have national forces designed to subjugate the general population. Nationalists love a national police force.

The SNP nationalists created a national police force called Police Scotland (or Polis Alba) but it more resembles Scot Squad than the Gardia Civil 😂😂

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On 18/10/2019 at 15:36, ChelseaBoy said:

Can you complain about a referendum even when you clearly lose?

 

Also, with both the previous administration that was centre left and now a socialist government, neither will submit to a portion of the country announcing unilateral independence in an illegal referendum. Polls before this referendum actually show a majority want to stay in Spain....ring any bells?

 

Also can you tell me exactly where the remnants of the Franco years exist please?  I have been to Spain many times for business and holidays, so not sure in what context you are talking about. 

I was meaning in terms of the autocratic attitude that the unity of Spain is guaranteed by force; yesterday the police were hitting protesters with batons just as they did with Rangers supporters in 1972. It's not really a socialist government now - it all stems back to a deal they did when Franco was deposed. I lived in Spain for 2 years and concur with what 26th has said elsewhere. Denial of the right to complete autonomy to the Basques and the Catalans is that remnant; challenge that and you challenge the whole system. If no desire for an independent Catalonia exists, then why not just grant a legal referendum?

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Palestinians, Norn Irish, The former Yugoslavia, The former Czechoslovakia.

 

Its repetitive...

 

Who has the right to change a border? A man in a suit??  

 

The most disturbing thing for me is when public believe what they hear on the mainstream news regarding these places and sway opinion. Im glad some are waking up though.

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4 hours ago, Gribz said:

Palestinians, Norn Irish, The former Yugoslavia, The former Czechoslovakia.

 

Its repetitive...

 

Who has the right to change a border? A man in a suit??  

 

The most disturbing thing for me is when public believe what they hear on the mainstream news regarding these places and sway opinion. Im glad some are waking up though.

They're waking up in Chile (because they raised metro prices), they're waking up in Ecuador, they're waking up in Hong Kong, the I million on the streets in London have woken up, XR have woken up.......as Sam Cooke famously said, 'A change is gonna come.'

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