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Jeremy Corbyn suspended by Labour Party


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1 minute ago, craig said:

We will definitely agree to disagree on the first point.  The EU have to be seen to at least be willing to get a deal done, despite them not wanting to.  I have very little doubt that they never wanted to do a deal.  Why would they ?  Everything points to them wanting to keep the UK in the Union - we are one of only 6 net contributors, at a time when some of the PIGS economies were struggling heavily and even greater reliance would be placed on net contributors, and they also knew that the loss of the UK could become their "house of cards", particularly as right-leaning parties in Europe were starting to gain more traction (Italy France to name but two) - and those opposition parties were fairly vocal about wanting to remove their nations from the EU if successful.

 

The EU never wanted to get a deal done, but had to be seen to be trying in the interests of democracy.  Their best bet was to do exactly what they did.  Publicly appear to be supportive of a deal but privately putting every obstacle they could in the way of it.  

I don’t think that explains it or gives a good enough reason as to why they would be secretly plotting to avoid getting a deal done.  It will hurt them and us, nobody wins. 

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7 minutes ago, stewarty said:

Absolutely.  It would have absolutely killed any ambiguity about the outcome or any moans that folk who voted to leave didn’t know what they were voting for. 

ambiguity about any outcome ?  Oh right, another vote because they didnt like the result of the first democratic vote.  That's just silly.  When you have a democratic vote the government have an obligation to carry through the wishes of the populace, not capitulate to a movement that wants a reversal of a democratic vote.  Very, very dangerous ground to step into.

 

They were voting to leave the EU.  The original vote was very simple - self-determination or remain part of a trading block.  It is a convenient excuse to make to say they didnt know what they were voting for when you dont like the outcome.

 

The people spoke, they wanted to leave, the legislature has an obligation to carry out the will of the people.

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8 minutes ago, stewarty said:

No government can bind the policies and actions of a successor government.  

People have a right to change their mind. 

Last I checked there hasnt been a successor government - it was David Cameron's Tory party that held the referendum and it s still the Tory party who are government today - unless, of course, you want to get into the semantics of the people heading these political parties.

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3 minutes ago, stewarty said:

I don’t think that explains it or gives a good enough reason as to why they would be secretly plotting to avoid getting a deal done.  It will hurt them and us, nobody wins. 

Our Brexit hurts them far more than trying to retain us.  I'm surprised that you don't see that.

 

And when former PM's (Blair & Major) are talking to the EU and openly campaigning for a reversal of the democratic will of the people then it isnt difficult to see why the EU would look to stall as far as possible, in the hopes that the UK eventually hold a second referendum and reverse the original decision.

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10 minutes ago, stewarty said:

Oh I’m sorry did I say some hurty words?

No.  You're the one hurting from a democratic vote.

 

I am delighted with the outcome and want politicians to do what the country voted for and I want people like you to accept the democratic vote.

Edited by Gonzo79
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2 minutes ago, craig said:

ambiguity about any outcome ?  Oh right, another vote because they didnt like the result of the first democratic vote.  That's just silly.  When you have a democratic vote the government have an obligation to carry through the wishes of the populace, not capitulate to a movement that wants a reversal of a democratic vote.  Very, very dangerous ground to step into.

 

They were voting to leave the EU.  The original vote was very simple - self-determination or remain part of a trading block.  It is a convenient excuse to make to say they didnt know what they were voting for when you dont like the outcome.

 

The people spoke, they wanted to leave, the legislature has an obligation to carry out the will of the people.

There is much ambiguity about brexit, in terms of what it means and how things will be going forward.   
 

Whatever happens in the coming weeks I can guarantee that it will not be what was promised by the main actors of the vote leave campaign.   

 

There were many promises made that never stacked up at the time, and still don’t.  
 

One of the biggest issues that is still to be fully resolved and was never discussed at any point during the referendum was the Irish border.  

 

Your final point about the will of the people is interesting.  I agree in principle but I also think that when faced with so much uncertainty about what brexit will mean, it’s a perfectly legitimate view to hold that a confirmatory vote is a good way to help get brexit done and make sure that three terms of the deal are sensible.  
 

I agreed with John major the other day when he said the same about any potential indyref 2

 

 

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12 minutes ago, craig said:

Last I checked there hasnt been a successor government - it was David Cameron's Tory party that held the referendum and it s still the Tory party who are government today - unless, of course, you want to get into the semantics of the people heading these political parties.

It was a general point.   Although boris’ government is quite different to may’s 

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11 minutes ago, craig said:

Our Brexit hurts them far more than trying to retain us.  I'm surprised that you don't see that.

 

And when former PM's (Blair & Major) are talking to the EU and openly campaigning for a reversal of the democratic will of the people then it isnt difficult to see why the EU would look to stall as far as possible, in the hopes that the UK eventually hold a second referendum and reverse the original decision.

I think they did hope we changed our minds.  I don’t know who will hurt more than the other, but I do know our economy will take a hit and that will be compounded with the effects of COVID.
 

And  I doubt the views of Blair and major were a significant factor either way,  

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