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Gerrard and the European Super League


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3 hours ago, rbr said:

ok heres my 2 bobs worth .

 

Firstly I am and was totally against any closed shop league , whether it super , dooper or whatever , there must be relegation and promotion irrespective , its one of the things that makes football great no matter how poor you may be , theres always the chance you just might succeed , also no matter how good you might just crash and burn , its what gives us the fear in big games and I love it .

 

Second , this mock indignation , that was shown down south last week was nothing other than covering their own arses , they give not a jot about the fans , this was about the other 14 losing out , end off.

 

Lastly , I totally understand wanting to better ourselves and get more money , however at what cost , to see bang average players getting paid a fortune with no commitment or care for the club , you only need see what this season has meant to our current squad , its what we love about them  , they get it .

 

we strive for success and greatness , down south 17th spot is what the majority would settle for at the season start , not for me , sorry .

Agree, Can you imagine David Sullivan and the Gold brothers turning down an invitation for West Ham to play in any ESL? No neither can I. It's the same with Leeds owners and probably half of the 14 that were so outraged not to be asked and now want the other 6 punished.... again to help their own cause not for the good of football. 

 

I am agaisnt a closed shop, but UEFA/FIFA have been proven to be corrupt so will not take any lessons from either. It is a moot point about any clubs moving South and I would have thought it will come to a head if there was a vote for Independence. Then the decision is whether you want to continue in a league operating outside of the UK?  

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50 minutes ago, rbr said:

ok heres my 2 bobs worth .

 

Firstly I am and was totally against any closed shop league , whether it super , dooper or whatever , there must be relegation and promotion irrespective , its one of the things that makes football great no matter how poor you may be , theres always the chance you just might succeed , also no matter how good you might just crash and burn , its what gives us the fear in big games and I love it .

 

Second , this mock indignation , that was shown down south last week was nothing other than covering their own arses , they give not a jot about the fans , this was about the other 14 losing out , end off.

 

Lastly , I totally understand wanting to better ourselves and get more money , however at what cost , to see bang average players getting paid a fortune with no commitment or care for the club , you only need see what this season has meant to our current squad , its what we love about them  , they get it .

 

we strive for success and greatness , down south 17th spot is what the majority would settle for at the season start , not for me , sorry .

I agree strongly with your sentiments. Contrary opinion seems to stem from using a measure of "success" and "progress" that's rapidly becoming outdated and irrelevant, or even counterproductive. The football enterprise in general and the elite end of it in particular has become increasingly dislocated from the fans who created it. The sport is directed by people for whom fans are an inconvenient condition of generating turnover. Yet there seems to be no shortage of fans who still think success lies in embracing the madness ever closer. For me, the future lies in an entirely different paradigm and in time I believe more will see it too.

 

The sad fact is I no longer have much interest in football. If it wasn't for Rangers I doubt I would watch another football match. I put far greater value on supporting Rangers than climbing UEFA's greasy pole. 

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55 minutes ago, Bill said:

I agree strongly with your sentiments. Contrary opinion seems to stem from using a measure of "success" and "progress" that's rapidly becoming outdated and irrelevant, or even counterproductive. The football enterprise in general and the elite end of it in particular has become increasingly dislocated from the fans who created it. The sport is directed by people for whom fans are an inconvenient condition of generating turnover. Yet there seems to be no shortage of fans who still think success lies in embracing the madness ever closer. For me, the future lies in an entirely different paradigm and in time I believe more will see it too.

 

The sad fact is I no longer have much interest in football. If it wasn't for Rangers I doubt I would watch another football match. I put far greater value on supporting Rangers than climbing UEFA's greasy pole. 

I don't think my definitions are outdated--in fact, they're quite modern and relevant in a world where money has driven the footballing elite mad. 

 

In what way is wanting to see a better calibre of player, or a better brand of football deemed outdated? It's a timeless footballing desire, from the lowest teams in league 2 to the very top.

 

In what way is living within your means irrelevant in this footballing world? Quite relevant, in fact. 

 

What's your "different paradigm"? 

 

I agree with your point about the dislocation of fans and club.

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2 minutes ago, Rousseau said:

I don't think my definitions are outdated--in fact, they're quite modern and relevant in a world where money has driven the footballing elite mad. 

 

It's good to feel modern and relevant.

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On 25/04/2021 at 11:39, Rousseau said:

Thanks for this.

 

You're saying that to be successful, a team needs to be 'badly run', or at least push the boat out, and that's not something you want to see for Rangers. You want to be entertained, which is what we're getting now. 

 

It seems like I'm being accused of being unimpressed by our success this season? That is not the case. If we have this level of success every few years or so, I'll be more than happy. I've been delighted by our performance this season.

 

Fair enough, we've been burned quite badly for speculating, pushing the boat out, in the past. That's certainly not something I want to see repeated. However, there are many examples of teams being well-run, living within their means, and achieving success. German sides are the archetype, but even sides like Southampton in the recent past (they've struggled recently because their recruitment has been poor and injuries), or Ajax. Good sides, living within their means. That's all I want. But, Southampton, arguably, have a better quality of squad than us--and Ajax and German sides certainly do. That frustrates me.  

 

Entertainment can be separated from the level at which we play--one can be entertained in League 2 and CL finals (in theory...). So, surely it doesn't matter if we play in Scotland or in the PL or in an Atlantic League? 

 

To see a better level of quality, in the playing squad and its performance, you'd need to be in a bigger pond. 

 

I too want to be entertained by Rangers, but I also want to see better quality players, see more success in the bigger competitions. At the moment we hit a wall. We could appoint the next big managerial genius tomorrow, but we'd still hit a wall with the level of player we can afford. So, if there is a chance of us moving to a bigger pond, to then attract and afford that better calibre of player, then I'm in favour of it. I don't think I'll ever change in that regard. 

 

Like I said elsewhere, if there is a sudden change, whereby Scottish football improves and becomes that bigger pond, then that's the same for me; I'd be delighted. 

Southampton made a loss of £76 million last year and a loss of £41 million in 2019, apparently they have a wages to turnover ratio of 90%. They finished 11th last season. Even Ajax make an operating loss most seasons (nothing like Southampton's to be fair), they rely on selling players to make up the shortfall. I can't think of any side in the UK that has had tangible on-field success while while being run like a normal business. Much as it pains me to say it the closest in recent years was Celtic, but they had the league and access to Europe all to themselves. As soon as we put a challenge in their model fell apart. 

 

I'm not accusing you of being unimpressed by this season, I don't think that. I do think your desire to join another league because there's more money available in it is mis-guided. As I said in my original post I'm not closed to against another league, but it has to be for the right reasons. For me access to more money isn't one of those reasons.

 

For what it's worth I think your view is probably the majority one among our support.

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On 23/04/2021 at 08:10, Rousseau said:

I've always been in favour of us moving.

 

Last season Norwich City, finishing bottom of the league--by some distance--had revenues of £119.3 million. 

 

Rangers, £59 million (?).

No brainer for me. We are being left behind. 20 years ago we could make the Champions League groups and put up a good fight against big teams. Those days are long gone, year by year the gap has grown between us and Europe's top clubs. We do have a rare opportunity to qualify directly for the UCL next season but that will be near impossible to maintain without loads of Europa League qualifiers to top-up the coefficient, with a 5th Scottish side in Europe diluting our coefficient and, at some point, without Gerrard. And without direct entry, qualification is going to get harder and harder. Going back only 5 years, the Champions route qualification play-off losers were Viktoria Plzen, Hapoel Be'er Sheva, APOEL, Dundalk and Red Bull Salzburg. Next season, the champions route losers will be one of Salzburg, Dinamo Zagreb, Slavia Prague, Olympiacos, Young Boys, Crvena Zvezda, Rangers, Midtjylland. All those teams are on a high, most are thrashing their leagues.

 

And as things stand, even tiny clubs who are relegation candidates in the EPL have at least twice the revenue we do and far more than twice the draw we have to attract players from across the world. If we played in a British League, you would back us to rise to the top and become a European force once again. Things are ok just now but we won't be beating the odds in Europe with Gerrard forever and without that we have no access to decent funds.

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For me, a move to another league isn't so much about ambition and chasing "success", but more to do with a desire to escape the confines of a badly organised, tinpot, and often toxic SPFL. Ideally, I'd like us to take part in a league where the other clubs are operating at a similar level, have similar sized stadia and budgets, decent pitches etc. and who actually try to play football against us. I've no desire to see Rangers ascend to Europe's higher echelons alongside the soulless, corporate superclubs, but I have absolutely loved our involvement in the Europa League since Stevie arrived. Playing games against proper, well-known European names like Rapid Vienna, Feyenoord, Galatasary, Benfica feels like where we belong.

 

30 years ago I'd have jumped at the chance to join a British League, but things have changed since then in England, and (like the other "big" leagues) the EPL has become skewed and dominated by a few clubs that have rigged a clear run at UEFA's prize money every year. I can't see how we (or any of the also-ran Premier League teams) could permanently catch up with Man U, Chelsea, Man City etc. without entrusting the club's future to foreign money men. Having said that, I'd probably rather be in Everton or Aston Villa's shoes than in the SPFL forevermore.

 

My preferred day-dream solution would be to see us join an Atlantic League or equivalent where we can escape to play against other teams currently "trapped" in smaller national leagues. I could get excited about games against Porto, Anderlecht, Ajax and the like, without feeling the need to sell our soul in order to compete.

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