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1 hour ago, der Berliner said:

The apparent problem with Bill is, that he openly ignores that this information was not collected by any Kremlin paper gatherer, but comes straight from Western newspapers and news outlets. As I noted above, none is more blind than those not willing to see.

MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL....

 

As one of your countrymen is rumoured to have once opined "Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty".

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On 01/05/2022 at 10:23, der Berliner said:

There were 7 are no right-wing Nazi problems in Ukraine, so Putin attacked without reason. Or so they say. Somehow, the internet does not forget what the wetsern media, Amnesty International. Human Rights Watch and Co. were writing about Ukraine, the Donbass and right-wing people from 2014 till 2022 ...

 

Media Are Now Whitewashing Nazis They Had Previously Condemned

Recently the New York Times, like many other 'western' outlets, has changed its language when reporting about the fascist Ukrainian Asov Battalion.

What was once "a Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitary organization" which even the FBI said is notorious for its “association with neo-Nazi ideology” was first relabeled as merely "far right" before it became a normal "unit in the Ukrainian military".

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New Zealand Massacre Highlights Global Reach of White Extremism, Mar 15 2019

Scrawled on his rifle was a white nationalist credo popularized by the American domestic terrorist and neo-Nazi David Lane. On his flak jacket was a symbol commonly used by the Azov Battalion, a Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitary organization.
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We Once Fought Jihadists. Now We Battle White Supremacists., Feb 11 2020

Defenders of the Ukrainian Azov Battalion, which the F.B.I. calls “a paramilitary unit” notorious for its “association with neo-Nazi ideology,” accuse us of being part of a Kremlin campaign to “demonize” the group.
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Why Vladimir Putin Invokes Nazis to Justify His Invasion of Ukraine, Mar 17 2022

Facebook last week said it was making an exception to its anti-extremism policies to allow praise for Ukraine’s far-right Azov Battalion military unit, “strictly in the context of defending Ukraine, or in their role as part of the Ukraine National Guard.”
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From Battered Mariupol Steel Plant, Fighters Share Desperate Videos to Push Out Story, Apr 29 2022

These scenes are from videos shared online in recent days by the Azov regiment, a unit in the Ukrainian military, which says they were taken in the mazelike bunkers beneath the sprawling Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol, Ukraine.
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It is not that Azov has de-radicalized over time. It has in fact grown more extreme.

Azov has infiltrated other organizations, especially some units of the Ukrainian regular military, the national guard, the police and the internal secret security organization SBU. Azov is by far not the only fascist (para-)military organization in Ukraine. There is the Aidar battalion, the Right Sector, the C-14 'youth' organization of the fascist Svoboda party as well as a dozen other such organization.

These groups are not only not prohibited as they should be but get encouraged and partially financed by the Ukrainian government.

The infiltration of the security services and government has dangerous consequences for the Ukrainian public.

Over the years many 'western' media have correctly reported about the Ukrainian fascists. Here is an incomplete collection (h/t Antispin😞

Next to those and many more media reports there are some detailed ones from various organization which document the war crimes Azov and groups like it have committed in Ukraine. In 2015 the Foundation for the Study of Democracy published a report about the War crimes of the armed forces and security forces of Ukraine: torture and inhumane treatment. In 2018 the Human Rights Platform "Uspishna Varta" wrote in a report about the Ministry of Internal Affairs and General Prosecutor's Office of Ukraine:

The existence of paramilitary groups within a number of far-right parties and nationalist organizations, which is expressly prohibited by Article 37 of the Constitution of Ukraine, is of high concern. As a part of the party "National Corpus" (earlier – "Azov") the paramilitary division "National Druzhina" operates, which held a public march in the center of Kiev in February 2018. The activities of this organization are not only not suppressed by representatives of law enforcement bodies, but are openly encouraged by the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine.

28% of all violations of political rights and freedoms recorded by the human rights platform "Uspishna Varta" in April-August 2018 involved right-wing radical organizations, primarily C14, as well as "National Druzhina", "Bratstvo", "Right Sector", etc.

The OHCHR documented 22 cases of discrimination, hate speech, and/or violence directed at persons belonging to minorities or those holding alternative, special social, or political opinions between 16 February and 15 May. At the same time, in 21 cases violence was committed by members of ultra-right groups, who appear to have acted with impunity. The police and the State Prosecutor's office did not prevent acts of violence, did not properly characterize them as hate crimes, did not effectively investigate discriminatory crimes, and did not prosecute the perpetrators, which violates the right to equally not be discriminated against in view of the law and leads to an atmosphere of impunity and a lack of justice for victims.

All this is well know. Over the years 'western' media have warned of growing fascism in Ukraine. While fascist parties get few votes in Ukraine they are in fact very powerful. They own the streets, have the guns and kill politicians who do not do what Azov and other fascist groups say. They can act with impunity.

Amnesty International has documented some of the crimes committed by fascist groups in Ukraine:

Human Rights Watch has a long list of reports on Ukraine. While some blame eastern separatists and Russia many others point to violence from the fascist far-right.

Currently a main Azov unit is sitting in the basement of  the Azovstal metalworks in Mariupol surrounded by Russian troops. It claims to have civilian hostages and refuse to surrender. To whitewash them now just because they have gotten themselves into this situation, as the NYT obviously does, is not justified.

 

Source

Whatever happens in Ukraine is for Ukraine to solve, allow or stop as it sees fit as a sovereign state. It should have nothing to do with another country whose record of meddling in neighbours affairs is well documented. 

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1 hour ago, alexscottislegend said:

And isn't that in itself a sad commentary on affairs? Innocent victims of all terrorist/war attacks deserve equal sympathy.

Yes but my point was it is the difference in scale that attracts more news, together with the potential for escalation etc etc.  

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2 hours ago, ChelseaBoy said:

Whatever happens in Ukraine is for Ukraine to solve, allow or stop as it sees fit as a sovereign state. It should have nothing to do with another country whose record of meddling in neighbours affairs is well documented. 

Is this some clever comment about that time the U.S.A. and U.K. invaded Iraq?

 

Or maybe that Libya escapade.

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6 hours ago, ChelseaBoy said:

Neither did any supermarket collect for victims of the IRA or those killed by ISIS or South Sudan. The difference with Ukraine is that it is a) in Europe, b) seen with a global lens thanks to MSM and social media and c) Involves one of the worlds super powers. Nothing else will come close unless China invades Taiwan or North Korea attacks the South. It is all about perspective.  

The difference is what our masters want to happen.

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Are we likely to reach peak whataboutery any time soon? Will it ever be possible to discuss the Russian invasion of Ukraine without referencing Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc? Howabout Tibet, which is the only comparable event I can think of. Will it ever be possible to regard Ukraine without hanging Nazi labels on everything? 

 

It's over 75 years since the second world war ended and with it the NAZI Party. There are no Nazi's in Ukraine or elsewhere, only people who you might choose to liken to Nazis. The Nazi epithet is silly weaponised language, not an accurate description. If you want to disparage the AZOV whatchamacallit then do so on the basis of accurate description rather than cheap pejoratives.

 

Germany and its people have consistently transferred accountability for their actions in the 20th century to the Nazis, as if the Nazi Party was some unrelated third party operation that had nothing to do with "real Germans", which of course is a total crock. Germany has hidden its guilt and responsibility behind Nazism and this catchall label is still being misused, too often at the moment to miscategorize the conflict in Ukraine. You have to be fairly native to try to label one side good and the other side bad, which is what two of our members are straining so hard to do on a daily basis. There is no good or bad. Only death, suffering and future danger. 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, ranger_syntax said:

The difference is what our masters want to happen.

Who are your masters?

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25 minutes ago, ranger_syntax said:

Is this some clever comment about that time the U.S.A. and U.K. invaded Iraq?

 

Or maybe that Libya escapade.

No. Its a statement of fact and includes all countries of which Russia is just the latest example. I was against the Iraq war and would be happy to have Blair hung from a post in downtown Fallujah. 

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EU in utter disarray about how or if to end dependency on Russian oil and gas can't agree on oil, can't agree on gas, can't agree if or when. Putin has the EU by the balls and the splits are opening up. Imagine if Brussels had control of an EU army.

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49 minutes ago, Bill said:

EU in utter disarray about how or if to end dependency on Russian oil and gas can't agree on oil, can't agree on gas, can't agree if or when. Putin has the EU by the balls and the splits are opening up. Imagine if Brussels had control of an EU army.

Yes, It is a complete mess. Hungary have said they will veto any attempt to stop oil and gas. Germany said they will stop gas... by the end of the year giving the Russians Billions to fund the war until then, Poland and Bulgaria have already had oil and gas switched off and the French not comitting to anything. Looks like they havent thought this through :) 

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