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5 minutes ago, ChelseaBoy said:

I think 90% of the general public share this view, its just the Government (Labout and Tory) some charities and NGOs that are fine with unrestricted immigration of economic migrants from the muslim world importing their medieval religion. 

If this is true then you need to ask whether, or not, we live in a democracy.

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35 minutes ago, ChelseaBoy said:

I think 90% of the general public share this view, its just the Government (Labout and Tory) some charities and NGOs that are fine with unrestricted immigration of economic migrants from the muslim world importing their medieval religion. 

Yes, the government elected by a catatonic public - presumably the same 90% who, in rare lucid moments, would disagree with their own stupidity. Y'know, like Glaswegians complaining about the SNP.

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11 hours ago, ranger_syntax said:

If this is true then you need to ask whether, or not, we live in a democracy.

Depends on how you define a democracy. The people get to vote. But the people they vote for are heavily influenced by corporations, wealthy individuals and Globalist lobbies. Who just so happen to also control the mainstream media. And social media. And so on.

Edited by Sutton_blows_goats
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38 minutes ago, Sutton_blows_goats said:

Depends on how you define a democracy. The people get to vote. But the people they vote for are heavily influenced by corporations, wealthy individuals and Globalist lobbies. Who just so happen to also control the mainstream media. And social media. And so on.

It's rule by the people. The existence of elections is only part of it.

 

If the outcome can't reasonably be said to be what people want then you can question whether or not the system is democratic.

 

We can't know the extent to which various groups are influenced, or even controlled, so it is best to leave all of that aside.

 

Plenty of data on public opinion exists so it is at least possible to compare that with policy outcomes.

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1 hour ago, Sutton_blows_goats said:

But the people they vote for are heavily influenced by corporations, wealthy individuals and Globalist lobbies.

michael moore bustle GIF by WatchUsRun

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  I actually agree with you.  

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2 hours ago, ranger_syntax said:

We can't know the extent to which various groups are influenced, or even controlled, so it is best to leave all of that aside.

 

I thought everybody born after 1960 knows for a fact that everything is controlled by the CIA. 

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53 minutes ago, Scott7 said:

I thought everybody born after 1960 knows for a fact that everything is controlled by the CIA. 

Or the KGB, depending on what side you're on.  

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3 hours ago, ranger_syntax said:

It's rule by the people. The existence of elections is only part of it.

 

If the outcome can't reasonably be said to be what people want then you can question whether or not the system is democratic.

That's just patent nonsense, a facile and misleading analysis. 

 

If "the people" keep on voting for politicians who fail to deliver what "the people" profess to want then there are only three possibilities ...

- people either don't actually know what they want

- people are content to be deceived

- people are deliberately trying to damage society

 

You can't re-invent democracy just because the electorate is indolent or stupid. Power remains with the electorate but there's no part of democracy that dictates they use that power wisely or at all.

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28 minutes ago, Bill said:

That's just patent nonsense, a facile and misleading analysis. 

 

If "the people" keep on voting for politicians who fail to deliver what "the people" profess to want then there are only three possibilities ...

- people either don't actually know what they want

- people are content to be deceived

- people are deliberately trying to damage society

 

You can't re-invent democracy just because the electorate is indolent or stupid. Power remains with the electorate but there's no part of democracy that dictates they use that power wisely or at all.

The power to elect is in the hands of the electorate. But that power is within a system of representative democracy. It is easy to see how more power is in the hands of the elected representatives. Some, Dominic Cummings for example, argue that unelected parts of the government are even more powerful than almost every elected representative.

 

Given these facts it is rather easy to imagine a fourth possibility. That is the existence of a ruling elite with interests that differ from the people. If we notice that policy outcomes align with the interests of the elite rather than the reported opinions of the public then questioning democracy is quite appropriate.

 

I am sure that there are other possibilities too but I'm not sure if any would be as important as the one I've mentioned.

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