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56 minutes ago, ranger_syntax said:

That is the existence of a ruling elite with interests that differ from the people. If we notice that policy outcomes align with the interests of the elite rather than the reported opinions of the public then questioning democracy is quite appropriate.

This is one of the main reasons the EU referendum was such a unique, powerful moment.

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13 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

This is one of the main reasons the EU referendum was such a unique, powerful moment.

Maybe, personally i believe the EU referendum was an attempt to weaken the EU and the UK. By whom? Don't know. All i know is if you look at the value of the pound v the dollar the Americans done well. 

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44 minutes ago, Sutton_blows_goats said:

Maybe, personally i believe the EU referendum was an attempt to weaken the EU and the UK. By whom? Don't know. All i know is if you look at the value of the pound v the dollar the Americans done well. 

Weaken the EU? How about strengthen the UK?  
 

US (Obama) warned us not to leave. US (Trump) thought we weren’t doing it fast enough or effectively enough. So which US was manipulating me when I voted to get out. As for the dollar, when I was a lad, you got three to the pound, now it’s 1.2. Par or under is looming. Overall, the dollar tends to do well against all currencies.

 

I must say, my dear fellow, I am considerably offended by your user-name. Nobody reading a Rangers board should be confronted by the word “S . . . . n”

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1 hour ago, Sutton_blows_goats said:

Maybe, personally i believe the EU referendum was an attempt to weaken the EU and the UK. By whom? Don't know. All i know is if you look at the value of the pound v the dollar the Americans done well. 

The referendum was voted on by individuals.

 

Quite different from almost everything else in the country it was a decision actually taken by the people.

 

Compare the reaction of the politicians after the referendum to the reaction after any election. After each election we have some fussing but it dies down quickly. After the referendum we had another two elections and constant attempts to hinder, or subvert, the decision.

 

Have a think about it. I think that there is something about direct democracy that politicians can't tolerate.

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7 hours ago, Scott7 said:

Weaken the EU? How about strengthen the UK?  
 

US (Obama) warned us not to leave. US (Trump) thought we weren’t doing it fast enough or effectively enough. So which US was manipulating me when I voted to get out. As for the dollar, when I was a lad, you got three to the pound, now it’s 1.2. Par or under is looming. Overall, the dollar tends to do well against all currencies.

 

I must say, my dear fellow, I am considerably offended by your user-name. Nobody reading a Rangers board should be confronted by the word “S . . . . n”

Hope you are right - if that happens I will be handing in my notice, converting my US$ pension to GBP and returning home :D

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29 minutes ago, craig said:

Hope you are right - if that happens I will be handing in my notice, converting my US$ pension to GBP and returning home :D

I wouldn’t rush to a decision 😉

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10 hours ago, ranger_syntax said:

The power to elect is in the hands of the electorate. But that power is within a system of representative democracy. It is easy to see how more power is in the hands of the elected representatives. Some, Dominic Cummings for example, argue that unelected parts of the government are even more powerful than almost every elected representative.

Didn't think it would necessarily be an argument that actually needs to be proferred by anyone.

 

10 hours ago, ranger_syntax said:

 

Given these facts it is rather easy to imagine a fourth possibility. That is the existence of a ruling elite with interests that differ from the people. If we notice that policy outcomes align with the interests of the elite rather than the reported opinions of the public then questioning democracy is quite appropriate.

Has it in reality ever been anything else?

 

 

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On 10/06/2022 at 09:51, ranger_syntax said:

It's rule by the people. The existence of elections is only part of it.

 

If the outcome can't reasonably be said to be what people want then you can question whether or not the system is democratic.

 

We can't know the extent to which various groups are influenced, or even controlled, so it is best to leave all of that aside.

 

Plenty of data on public opinion exists so it is at least possible to compare that with policy outcomes.

The furore over the Brexit result is a perfect example of the so called elites not wanting the result of a democratic vote of the people to stand because it went against their world view. The NGOs and pressure groups often act against the will of the people, the Rwanda policy is just another example.

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19 hours ago, Sutton_blows_goats said:

Maybe, personally i believe the EU referendum was an attempt to weaken the EU and the UK. By whom? Don't know. All i know is if you look at the value of the pound v the dollar the Americans done well. 

I think it was an attempt to right a wrong going back to 1970s when Britain was entered into the common market without a vote, and only after it was already there did the Government of the day bother to ask the people what it wanted.

 

Then the whole force of the establishment was used in the campaign to push the yes vote, leaving the "unholy alliance" of the left and right headed by Tony Benn and Enoch Powell to lead the no vote, with hardly any resources at their disposal.

 

Cameron thought he could do this again with his Govt funded leaflet before the referendum, but leave was much more organised this time round and 40 odd years in the CM/EU showed most people what it had become and was aiming to be. 

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