Jump to content

 

 

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, stewarty said:

You wouldn’t be suggesting that Russia/Putin is full of shit, would you?

Guilty as charged

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, buster. said:

I think you have consumed too much of the relentless propaganda that has been churned out and fail to see the bigger more complete picture.

 

This isn't about 'Goodies v Badies'. It is about two different versions of 'badies'.

 

The geo-politics behind it all, the ambitions, end games from all sides is open for discussion....if you value truth and the lot of the ordinary citizen, whether from Kiev or Kilmarnock.

 

A general point. Disagree, fine but the ridicule or McCarthy like finger pointing doesn't do anyone any good. 

 

Back to this thread...

There should be concerted efforts to mitigate the economic consequences that are coming down the road.

 

If you think poking the Bear with an ever bigger stick will work out well for us all, then I disagree.

 

If you think Putin is behind an upcoming Project for Russian domination....I don't agree.

 

The Russians don't want missiles aimed at them in bordering countries. There are long-term red lines we are crossing. 

 

Get the diplomatic efforts underway to find a solution and avert more death and misery (for all). Trying to take on Russia and what that could lead to is highly irresponsible.

 

Why is there such an appetite to further this conflict ? A question to ask of all sides.

 

 

 

Buster, old chap, you have jumped to a false conclusion based on your own bias.

 

A few points:

1) There is only one side in this conflict that is presenting a direct threat to me and my family.  You may disagree with that, as you've indicated, and thats fine by me.

2) If the truth and the lot of the ordinary citizen was so important, why do some seem hell-bent on excusing the falsehoods and war crimes perpetrated by Russia?  And for the avoidance of doubt, that includes sympathy for the alleged reasons for Putin's actions (which, also for the avoidance of doubt, are absolute horseshit)

3) I'm more than happy to debate in good faith.  Sadly there are some who are unable to do so in return.  Thats on them.

4) Poking the bear is precisely what we (the west) have avoided for the last 20 years, even going so far as to turn a blind eye to all manner of clear provocations, and where has it got us? 

5) Whether Putin is behind Project for Russian domination, is irrelevant.  Putin is the one in charge of Russia's forces and is the one making the decisions.  If you're saying that he doesn't really want to restore Russia's empire ,then I disagree.  

6) Perhaps neighbouring countries wouldn't feel the need to seek alliances and shore up their defensive/offensive posture if they didn't fear there was an existential threat for the bear.  Hell, Sweden has dispensed with its long-held neutrality because of this.  They didn't even do that during ww2 ffs.

7) Diplomatic efforts will fail until Russia is prepared to own up to its clearly inflammatory and genocidal actions.  And that wont happen whilst they are under the yoke of an authoritarian like Putin.  History has a habit of repeating itself.

'8) There is no appetite for conflict in Ukraine.  There is however a desire from Ukrainians to defend themselves, their families and their way of life.  There is also a desire from the west to help them because its clear to me, and in fairness, most western leaders, that this conflict wont stop if/when Putin secures the Donbas or whatever reduced aims he otherwise claims.

 

At some point, the western world has to stand up to Putin fully.  We are just playing around the edges of this.   And that isn't some warmongering thought from me, its my conclusion having watched this play out so far

Edited by stewarty
Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, stewarty said:

Buster, old chap, you have jumped to a false conclusion based on your own bias.

 

A few points:

1) There is only one side in this conflict that is presenting a direct threat to me and my family.  You may disagree with that, as you've indicated, and thats fine by me.

2) If the truth and the lot of the ordinary citizen was so important, why do some seem hell-bent on excusing the falsehoods and war crimes perpetrated by Russia?  And for the avoidance of doubt, that includes sympathy for the alleged reasons for Putin's actions (which, also for the avoidance of doubt, are absolute horseshit)

3) I'm more than happy to debate in good faith.  Sadly there are some who are unable to do so in return.  Thats on them.

4) Poking the bear is precisely what we (the west) have avoided for the last 20 years, even going so far as to turn a blind eye to all manner of clear provocations, and where has it got us? 

5) Whether Putin is behind Project for Russian domination, is irrelevant.  Putin is the one in charge of Russia's forces and is the one making the decisions.  If you're saying that he doesn't really want to restore Russia's empire ,then I disagree.  

6) Perhaps neighbouring countries wouldn't feel the need to seek alliances and shore up their defensive/offensive posture if they didn't fear there was an existential threat for the bear.  Hell, Sweden has dispensed with its long-held neutrality because of this.  They didn't even do that during ww2 ffs.

7) Diplomatic efforts will fail until Russia is prepared to own up to its clearly inflammatory and genocidal actions.  And that wont happen whilst they are under the yoke of an authoritarian like Putin.  History has a habit of repeating itself.

'8) There is no appetite for conflict in Ukraine.  There is however a desire from Ukrainians to defend themselves, their families and their way of life.  There is also a desire from the west to help them because its clear to me, and in fairness, most western leaders, that this conflict wont stop if/when Putin secures the Donbas or whatever reduced aims he otherwise claims.

 

At some point, the western world has to stand up to Putin fully.  We are just playing around the edges of this.   And that isn't some warmongering thought from me, its my conclusion having watched this play out so far

I don't think you appreciate the full picture but haven't the time just now to reply in detail.

Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, buster. said:

I don't think you appreciate the full picture but haven't the time just now to reply in detail.

No need for pages and pages.  A few headlines should suffice.  Though I would warn you to avoid more lazy assumptions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, buster. said:

haven't the time just now to reply in detail.

 

18 minutes ago, stewarty said:

No need for pages and pages.  A few headlines should suffice. 

No Way GIF by Hobbs & Shaw Smack Talk

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, stewarty said:

Buster, old chap, you have jumped to a false conclusion based on your own bias.

 

A few points:

1) There is only one side in this conflict that is presenting a direct threat to me and my family.  You may disagree with that, as you've indicated, and thats fine by me.

2) If the truth and the lot of the ordinary citizen was so important, why do some seem hell-bent on excusing the falsehoods and war crimes perpetrated by Russia?  And for the avoidance of doubt, that includes sympathy for the alleged reasons for Putin's actions (which, also for the avoidance of doubt, are absolute horseshit)

3) I'm more than happy to debate in good faith.  Sadly there are some who are unable to do so in return.  Thats on them.

4) Poking the bear is precisely what we (the west) have avoided for the last 20 years, even going so far as to turn a blind eye to all manner of clear provocations, and where has it got us? 

5) Whether Putin is behind Project for Russian domination, is irrelevant.  Putin is the one in charge of Russia's forces and is the one making the decisions.  If you're saying that he doesn't really want to restore Russia's empire ,then I disagree.  

6) Perhaps neighbouring countries wouldn't feel the need to seek alliances and shore up their defensive/offensive posture if they didn't fear there was an existential threat for the bear.  Hell, Sweden has dispensed with its long-held neutrality because of this.  They didn't even do that during ww2 ffs.

7) Diplomatic efforts will fail until Russia is prepared to own up to its clearly inflammatory and genocidal actions.  And that wont happen whilst they are under the yoke of an authoritarian like Putin.  History has a habit of repeating itself.

'8) There is no appetite for conflict in Ukraine.  There is however a desire from Ukrainians to defend themselves, their families and their way of life.  There is also a desire from the west to help them because its clear to me, and in fairness, most western leaders, that this conflict wont stop if/when Putin secures the Donbas or whatever reduced aims he otherwise claims.

 

At some point, the western world has to stand up to Putin fully.  We are just playing around the edges of this.   And that isn't some warmongering thought from me, its my conclusion having watched this play out so far

Jumping to conclusions/bias.

That is your opinion, I could say the same.

 

1. There are 2 sides who represent a threat to me and my family. It is not Goodies v Baddies, open your eyes.

 

2. Looking at the fuller picture regards motives is not me excusing anything. At a diplomatic level, refusal to take on board issues that are very much part of the motive is gross stupidity and will lead to more war dead and further consequences for all.

It reminds me of those trying to convince themselves that blowback didn't exist post Iraq invasion. All of whom would have been sold on WMD.

 

4. Perhaps parts of the West have been too busy pursuing their own long-term interventionist agenda to notice. I think you have already mentioned falsehoods and war crimes. Here, they seem to get knighted whilst we bend the legal process to make sure someone who brings truth, is locked up for Life.

 

I would agree Putin is authoritive and ruthless. He reminds me of a mafia like godfather and shares the loot with other Oligarchy members. 

I don't believe he wants to fully restore the Soviet empire, he couldn't. 

 

There is no appetite for conflict amongst ordinary Ukrainians. But there is with Zelensky (sp) and with some (not all) of his backers in the West. They are interested in it going on for a lot longer. That is why they too, are a threat to all.

 

As I said, there are no Goodies in this and as usual, it is the ordinary people who are the victims.

Edited by buster.
Link to post
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, buster. said:

Jumping to conclusions/bias.

That is your opinion, I could say the same.

 

1. There are 2 sides who represent a threat to me and my family. It is not Goodies v Baddies, open your eyes.

 

2. Looking at the fuller picture regards motives is not me excusing anything. At a diplomatic level, refusal to take on board issues that are very much part of the motive is gross stupidity and will lead to more war dead and further consequences for all.

It reminds me of those trying to convince themselves that blowback didn't exist post Iraq invasion. All of whom would have been sold on WMD.

 

4. Perhaps parts of the West have been too busy pursuing their own long-term interventionist agenda to notice. I think you have already mentioned falsehoods and war crimes. Here, they seem to get knighted whilst we bend the legal process to make sure someone who brings truth, is locked up for Life.

 

I would agree Putin is authoritive and ruthless. He reminds me of a mafia like godfather and shares the loot with other Oligarchy members. 

I don't believe he wants to fully restore the Soviet empire, he couldn't. 

 

There is no appetite for conflict amongst ordinary Ukrainians. But there is with Zelensky (sp) and with some of his backers in the West. They are interested in it going on for a lot longer. That is why they too, are a threat to all.

 

As I said, there are no Goodies in this and as usual, it is the ordinary people who are the victims.

Blair's legacy over Iraq is clear to many people, myself included.  But I'm not even remotely trying to argue that the UK/US/The West is in any way an innocent bystander in terms of world affairs.  

 

Whether Putin is trying to restore the Soviet empire is debatable.  Meantime he has been actively agitating to increase Russia's territory and influence and is prepared to sacrifice many lives in the process.  He agitates on multiple fronts, but primarily through oil and gas - one of the key reasons he wants the Donbas by the way, not that it gets mentioned so much.

 

Also, whilst I'm sure there are many defence suppliers and contractors lapping all of this up, the mental gymnastics of suggesting that Zelensky wants to preside over a nation at war is quite a staggering leap of logic.  Some politicians like Boris quite clearly see personal opportunities to try and shore up their popularity with PR trips to Ukraine, but that is more about his domestic credibility.

 

Meanwhile, the men, women and children of the Ukraine, and the young men conscripted to fight for Russia, are dying in their thousands because Putin has unilaterally and illegally invaded Ukraine.  You can have all the "two sides are bad" debate you want, but when faced up by an enemy determined to remove you from the map, all such prevarication becomes irrelevant.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.