calscot 0 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 There's nothing wrong with the flags themselves, but you have question the REAL reasoning behind them. When you have a certain reputation then no-one believes your motives anymore. Your argument is so easy to knock down. Are you tolerant of IRA flags or even innocent Irish tricolours? To be "actually all inclusive" we should drop the BJK and welcome pedophiles with open arms. My trouble is that most of the defence of our songs and flags while technically valid, the reality is a surfeit of horse-shit. Yes, the Sash could be considered an innocent song, but when you have people singing it, whose fathers weren't in the OO, then what is it all about? You have people proclaiming their unionism and then voting SNP and supporting any team against England. You have people proud to be a prod, who never set foot in a Church except for the usual weddings etc, and then show their protestant work ethic by holding down a business while claiming incapacity benefit. These prods are such good Christians that they spit on, vocally abuse or even attack people due to their different form of Christianity or just the football team they support. People spout stuff about King Billy and the B. of the Boyne while dengrating the Pope, even though the latter backed Billy to win and the former was all for religious tolerance - especially Protestants against Catholics. I will never be for "actually all inclusive" as I am not that naive. I'm against terrorists, murderers, child abusers etc. However, we can express some tolerance at football matches by not displaying anything divisive or that can be interpreted as such. Once we have a long time reputation for being happy clappy, tree huggers then maybe we can start to show some preferences. However, you really have to question people's need and motives to do this at a football match, when it rarely manifests itself elsewhere. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 8,157 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 If no-one believes our motives, why waste time reasoning or attempting to appease them then? There's no way banners of the Union flag with RSC names or tongue-in-cheek banners about being behind enemy lines are offensive. For anyone to suggest so is really quite bizarre. Just how sanitised do some want to make life? What's next to remove - the colour blue from our strips? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmck 117 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 There's nothing wrong with the flags themselves, but you have question the REAL reasoning behind them. When you have a certain reputation then no-one believes your motives anymore. things that dont have to be justified shouldnt be justified. things like flying the flag of a country you live in, say. Your argument is so easy to knock down. Are you tolerant of IRA flags or even innocent Irish tricolours? To be "actually all inclusive" we should drop the BJK and welcome pedophiles with open arms. it isnt really. support for terrorists isnt the same as a countrys flag - though i personally dont care if people fly ira flags. i dont think anyone anywhere is saying that celtic fans shouldnt be able to fly a tricolour. when i said all inclusive, i meant, as you did, as representative of what are considered decent in our society. unionism, given that were are in a union, simply cant be considered some lunatic fringe view. all the great acts of stupidity start when someone ascribes the "real" motives of things when they arent clear. you are trying to imply that every britain flag secretly reveals the holders wish to burn catholics to death, when, all things considered, its probably at most to wind up celtic fans. when you want to know what someones motive for something is, you are better just asking them. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Rangers are a club with many proud Unionist links. See the recent toast of the Loving Cup for proof of that. If some choose to incorporate their support of the Union or the monarchy in the way they follow the club then that's fine by me. Just as it's fine for others not to. Where does that leave Rangers supporters who are for a Scottish republic? Who chose to have these links and why should we have to subscribe to them? Like I've said, emphasising some of these not football links definitely panders to the extremes of our support, and people who have never heard of it or understand also get drawn in to the more insidious side of things. These people are always looking for something to be for and against so why give them something so politically sensitive? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmck 117 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 ^ uhm, you would go to the games and not join in with anything that you were against, like everyone else? or are you one of these people who think tolerance for your view is never hearing anything contrary? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 If no-one believes our motives, why waste time reasoning or attempting to appease them then? There's no way banners of the Union flag with RSC names or tongue-in-cheek banners about being behind enemy lines are offensive. For anyone to suggest so is really quite bizarre. Just how sanitised do some want to make life? What's next to remove - the colour blue from our strips? Maybe it's time to question some of our own motives. Belligerence never really solves anything. I really doubt that anyone needs to bring their political or religious beliefs to a football match. You have to question the motives of anyone who does. It makes you wonder what football is really all about - besides sport and tribalism. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 8,157 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 If people are nationalist then that's perfectly fine. Sing Flower of Scotland and fly the saltire... Not sure what you're offended by cal.. Football is tribal. and it does reflect social choices quite often. That's what makes the sport so inviting, attending games so exhilarating and losing titles so upsetting. It's life. I make no apology for being a Rangers fan and see no reason why we need to question our own history and background just because someone may not subscribe to it. Like I say, what's next? Blue strips to be removed in case fans who prefer the colour pink don't like it. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Frankie, I'm not offended, I just think we're our own worst enemy. I'm surprised you're totally comfortable with the full history of Rangers. I for one can see much wrong doing, and as I recognise this I want us to change for the better. Some of the changes have already come about but there are those who would like to dwell on the distasteful side of things, those that turn a blind eye and some of the drum banging we do encourages the old bad ways. Both Rangers and Celtic are guilty of sectarianism which has helped continue a schism in our society, and I think both clubs have to atone for that. Trying to brush it under the carpet, pretend it didn't happen or re-justifying it with modern day spin just doesn't help in my opinion. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 8,157 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm not trying to brush anything under the carpet. Rangers and our fans have worked very hard in recent years to put previous problems behind us. Yet, some still seem to want to complain about anything. Union flags and funny puns about rival fans shouldn't be confused with real problems either in football or society in general. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAndPassion 0 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I have to agree with most of Cal's posts on here I'm not anti-monarchy, but my political views are now moving slowly towards believing that independence would be good for Scotland, with the queen remaining as head of state. I know that isn't seen as the general view of a Rangers fan, but i have no probs with that, and if the majority of Rangers fans are pro-unionist (i'm not convinced they are by the way!) then i have no issues with that either However, i a) don't think the club should be actively pushing an identity, a la the good old 'empire megamix' they insist on playing pre-match and b) that my view is equally respected, and not scorned upon. I've seen people getting abuse at Ibrox for wearing a 'Jock' top in the past .. that kind of thing is bang out of order 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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