JohnMc

This thread was depressing until two posts ago.

The Gow article is excellent.

I wouldn't ever suggest that a system of schooling should be abolished - but is that really the correct description of what RC schools are? A system? If parents want their kids to be schooled in a particular way then absolutely they should have the right to choose, but all schooling "systems" should be open to everyone without reference to their religion (or any other irrelevant trait). Would it be okay to apply this idea to any other kind of institution - that certain of them are only for people of a particular religion?

 

I suppose I approach this whole subject from a negative starting point because I'm fairly anti-religious in outlook and don't agree with the concept drumming religion into children too young to properly question what they're being taught. To paraphrase the school superintendent from The Simpsons, "God has no place within education, just like facts don't have a place within an organized religion."

Hah, good line.

I'm not advocating them, I just don't think they are to blame for sectarianism. Whether it's the state's job to provide them is a different argument and one I don't think we'd be miles apart on.

It's obviously a bit much to say that denominational education turns children into bigots, but I definitely think it's the case that it creates the divisions and differences in beliefs that bigotry is rooted in.

 

My best pal up until I was about 10 was the kid across the street - I don't think separation at primary school age made too much of a difference. When we both went to secondary school we drifted apart until we were about 17 or 18 when (both being total nerds) our paths crossed again and we spent a lot of time playing computer games, nintendo and stuff like that together. We were still good mates and got on really well, but the peer pressure of the RC secondary school he attended had most definitely influenced his attitudes. In the 7 or 8 years when we hadn't been hanging out together he had become (shock-horror!) an avid celtic fan - where previously he had a lack of interest or knowledge in football to the point of it being embarrassing for him (not knowing who played for Scotland etc.) I suppose that change is self-explanatory - you adopt the interests of your classmates in order to fit in.

 

Obviously, that's no big deal, but he had also adopted, for presumably similar reasons to his football affiliation, a fairly cookie-cutter set of political opinions - Pro Irish-Republican, anti-royalism etc. TBF, since the town I grew up in was far from cosmopolitan and the Secondary school I attended was effectively the Protestant school, I'd developed some proto-Sectarian attitudes that certainly didn't come from my parents (fairly innocuous ones - "the pope" was regularly the punch-line for off-colour jokes amongst my school friends for example.)

 

I'd argue that increased differences in football affiliation and political attitudes (to Britain/Ireland mainly) are both effects of segregated schooling (pressure from a different set of peers during formative years) and whilst we all ought to grow out of that when we leave school, it's inevitable that some of us won't. So would the Catholic/Protestant divide exist in the West of Scotland if we all went to the same schools? I'm convinced it would be much less pronounced if we did.

A childhood suspicion of people who go to a different school is fairly normal. Retaining that suspicion into adult life isn't. The argument that because a small number of people aren't able to evolve their thoughts from that of a 14 year old isn't a good enough reason to abolish an entire schooling system. That's the kind of thinking that has woman wearing burqas because some men might not be able to prevent themselves from carrying out rape.

I'm convinced there would be far less violent crime if we banned all alcohol. Assaults and murder rates would plummet, A&E departments would see admissions drop and some families would benefit from having sober parents in them. But I amn't advocating prohibition because a number of people are incapable of knowing when they've had enough.

I know you aren't saying any of the above, but the argument is the same.

I don't remember coming across any anti-Semitism at school despite there being a lot of Jewish kids there, but I do remember some anti-RC sectarianism, and there were practically no RCs at the school.

 

 

 

Does the home environment have an influence as to whether someone becomes a bigot? Of course it does.

Will mixing with people on a daily basis and becoming their friend have an influence as to whether someone becomes a bigot? Of course it does.

 

Both have an influence and I just can't accept that separate schools has no influence on bigotry. The level of it is up to each individual person, but it seems crzy to me to deny that it's irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying that it does.

 

 

 

It's a lot less of an issue than it was 30-40 year ago. More mixed marriages, more kids mixing at school and have friends of different religions, more RCs going to non-denom schools has all helped, although I wouldn't say that this is the sole cause.

Here's my problem with this. RC schools are fairly commonplace in many countries fairly equivalent with Scotland. England, Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand for example all have RC schools yet don't seem to have that cultural tension we do. These places aren't utopian societies though, they have issues regarding race for example, often quite serious ones. Similarly gay people will experience prejudice in society despite full integration. Woman will generally experience significantly more prejudice and discrimination during their life despite schools being co-ed and all of us having mothers.

I've an acquaintance to attended Shawlands Academy at a time of significant racial tension, culminating in a riot along race lines after school that made the national news.

I've yet to read any actual evidence that proves separate schooling has a significant influence on this subject. Poor education does though. Poverty and unemployment are often factors, economic issues are usually at the heart of much social tension.

I just think the school thing is an easy blame, it suggests the perpetrators are somehow victims of circumstance.

Nothing more needs to be highlighted here.

Unfortunately dB it does. Collymore's a clown, but it's that section of our own support who continue to provide clowns with ammunition and who react with such hostility whenever someone criticises us that we should be focusing on.

Whatever we might think of the laws surrounding the 'Billy Boys' and 'Why Don't You Go Home' it doesn't change the fact that singing them get's the club into bother and allows our organised enemies to make hay. We should save our ire for the dickheads who insist on singing the songs.

We've enough to be concerning ourselves with just now.

Agreed, but who reads that rhag anyway?

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. Either way the Guardian is the second most read news site in the UK, only the BBC site attracts more visits. Combined circulation between the website and the printed edition is now over 8.5 million visits every month. It's widely recognised as the most influential independent news site in Europe now.

As BD says, it isn't the teachers who are creating any sectarianism. That is a red herring IMHO. What DOES create mistrust and division is the SYSTEM. Any system which singles out a particular type of person based on "whatever" will inherently lead to suspicion, skepticism and more than likely a dislike, mistrust and a lack of integration.

 

It isn't the teachers, it is the system itself which gives rise to the higher probability of sectarianism.

But people have to take personal responsibility for themselves or their children. Blaming the 'school system' doesn't absolve the individual for being a bigot surely? The fact that I should mistrust someone who is basically identical to me in every way except for their interpretation of aspects of Pauline based theology is truly a bizarre construct. You (probably) went to a different school to me, if I mistrust or actively dislike you because of that then I'm a dick, it's not an excuse.

That's the argument that the RC church uses and it's deeply flawed IMO. I don't think there's many who believe teachers go about promoting sectarianism. It's not the day-to-day teaching but it's the fact that RC children are forcibly separated for their education from children of other faiths that emphasises the differences.

 

I had Protestant, Jewish, Muslim and RC kids in my street and most of us could walk to and from school together without any problems. On the way home, we would make plans to play football together. The RC kids would have a bus pick them up and they would disappear off to some other school. They were never part of the plans for the football as I didn't really know them and hardly ever saw them. I didn't know what the difference was but I knew that they were different as they wouldn't go to my school.

 

Edit -when you have this divide enforced on kids then it will lead to divisions. I grew up with no RC friends, but had plenty of Jewish ones and one Muslim one but it was nothing to do with bigotry, but setting up that sort of environment will lead to differences and can lead to bigotry on both sides.

 

 

 

A sweeping statement that will be true to an extent but is not the main factor in my experience. It's an easy answer that is used to try and excuse the continued financial support of an education system that gives choices to only one section of the community.

 

 

It's difficult to respect anyone's opinion who thinks Graham Spiers deserves a chapter of a book, so I'll give it a miss.

His chapter is worth a read as are many other chapters in the book it's a shame Speirs piece overshadowed everything else.

Anyway, I'm not promoting denominational education, I'm simply saying I don't think it's to blame for sectarianism in our society. Most Jewish people in Scotland go to non-denominational schools yet anti-semitism is still in existence. Racism still exists yet black kids go to the same schools as the rest of us as do as do Asian kids yet they'll all experience various forms of racism here from time-to-time.

I'm going to assume you aren't a bigot Bluedell. I've been reading your posts on various forums and blogs for a long time and you've never given me that impression, indeed I'd say the opposite. Why aren't you a bigot, after all you had no RC friends as a child and were aware of their 'differentness'? I'm going to assume it's because you were brought up to treat people equally, to judge someone on their actions and words and not on their colour or religious beliefs or that in your adult life you've learned that people come in all kinds no matter their colour or religious beliefs. Certainly that's been my experience.

Genuine sectarianism, a real dislike of a person or people you've not met simply because they were educated to follow a slightly different version of the same basic belief system as you can only be borne out of ignorance. The fact they went to a different school doesn't excuse the basic ignorance or fear that underlines all sectarianism.

For the record though I'm far from convinced 'sectarianism' is a big problem here, it makes headlines but I don't believe it has a meaningful effect on most people's lives, no matter their background.

This story is about public perceptions, not statistical analysis. Football has a far higher profile in Scotland than almost any other subject, that certain clubs are top-of-mind is no real surprise.

Not a popular opinion I accept but I take issue with the blaming 'schools' narrative, it's certainly not my experience. I'm not in favour of state-funded religious schooling but not because I think it creates sectarianism. I've yet to meet a teacher who promotes or creates sectarian tensions. These things come from the home, intolerance and ignorance are usually domestic issues. The Rangers supporting journalist Ronnie Esplin wrote an interesting chapter on this for one of the 'Rangers For Me' books about his personal experiences with Catholic schools, it's worth digging out.

Winning or losing isn't the issue at that level it's about development. Concern over the 'score' has been a blight on Scottish youth football for years, the number of times I've heard of a local youth team return from a tournament somewhere abroad with a trophy only for all their players to sink without trace. We're currently on the same points as Dundee Utd, I wonder if posters on their messageboards are calling for heads because they are mid-table...

If Durrant or any other coach is able to use that league to actually develop future players then I'd happily lose every week at that level, it really doesn't matter.

Making comparisons between the Scottish and English leagues is pointless. The only way any sort of equilibrium can be restored is if Sky go bust, most analysts agree they've paid too much for the rights so it's not impossible but is unlikely. In the meantime hundreds of small Scottish boys are starting to support English club sides instead of Scottish ones. We'll become Ireland within a generation as things stand.

The only way to make Scottish football more attractive is to make it more competitive. That involves spreading the little money there is around more evenly. Those currently with the money don't want to do that. Then some imagination is required and there's precious little of that around in Scottish football. I've come to believe that we're the last generation of Scottish club fans.

If you actually read the article he only mentions Rangers once and I find it hard to disagree with his point that as long as the biggest and best supported club in the land look like a circus the sport will struggle to find a sponsor. That's his point and it's a fair one.

We're struggling to pay salaries every month, our board make decisions that baffle everyone and are counter to our long term well-being. No one could state with any certainty that we won't have another financial implosion and find ourselves playing in the South of Scotland league. We're self-harming on an industrial scale.

I understand why people don't like other club's executives criticising us, but if you actually read what he said can anyone really take issue with it?

McGregor is a smart cookie and what he's achieved at Ross County is remarkable. We kind of take it for granted that they're a top flight side now but it's still astonishing, Dingwall has a population of less than 5,500 people, even when you take in the surrounding countryside you're not looking at more than 15,000, that's about the same size as Cumnock!

Wasn't it McGregor who refused to back the first 're-structuring' proposed by Celtic and Dundee Utd a couple of years back? Also Ross County weren't in the SPL the season we were demoted.

I think you are right to worry.

I was in a restaurant on Saturday night named after Fausto Coppi, it had a cracking big picture of him on one of the walls. If your island bagging extends to that large one to Scotland's south west I'd recommend a visit.

I used to work with a member of a fairly well known Glasgow based supporter's club, who from what I could see seemed to be a front for organised shop-lifting. Every second monday we were offered all sorts of unlikely apparel and fancy goods as the department stores of provincial Scotland were visited. Trips to Europe were a big deal as serious money could be made. Rangers drew Dynamo Kiev, then in the Soviet Union and pre Glasnost. Somehow about 12 of them got visas and went to the future Ukrainian capital on a shoplifting spree with a football match thrown in.

I had visions of them pushing babushkas to one side in the queue for cabbage in the local GUM store but no, in a state with no official crime they were in their element. They encountered some issues at Glasgow Airport though as each of them was wearing a genuine ladies Russian sable fur coat with matching hat, all claiming it was their own and they'd worn them on the way out. The sight of a tall, overweight, middle-aged Glaswegian man wearing a size 10, £4,000 ladies fur coat over his Rangers top was no doubt one of the more peculiar sites that day at the airport.

A few years later Rangers drew Stuea Bucharest and they moved heaven and earth to arrange another potentially lucrative trip beyond the Iron Curtain. However this time on their arrival they were prevented from leaving their hotel by armed police and each person on the trip found they were followed by two Romanian secret policemen at all times.

My favourite story though concerns a Celtic supporter's club a different work colleague was on. Celtic were drawn against a side from the then Yugoslavia, still a communist country although more open to visitors than the Warsaw Pact ones. The match was to take place in what is now Bosnia for some reason so this club decided to stay in Italy and simply cross the border on the day of the match. This was long before the Euro so they all had Italian lira, a much derided currency at the time. This was then changed into whatever the Yugoslav currency was, but they were warned that they would not be allowed to take any Yugoslav currency out of the country when they left and that even if they did it was practically worthless in Western Europe. As such after the match the entire bus decided to pool all the Yugoslav money they all had left and spend it on fags and booze. Well it tuned out these were both quite cheap in Yugoslavia and this bus was literally buying every single packet and bottle in every small town on the road to the Italian border. Word was getting out and as they would enter the next town the locals would have already packed up thousands of cigarettes and cases and cases of vodka and beer and lined them up on the pavement.

Having literally emptied every town of cigarettes and alcohol they arrived in the last village at the border. There was nothing left to buy yet they still had money. As my pal said it probably wasn't very much but it looked like loads, hundreds and hundreds of notes were left and as they discussed what to do with it someone shouted 'there's a lassie with a pram, go give it to her and the wean'. So two drunk and pretty stupid Tims jumped off the bus carrying a very large wad of notes, approached the unsuspecting lady, pointed at her pram and offered her the money. The woman screamed, loudly. The guys were bewildered, speaking not a word of Serbo-Croat they once again attempted to give the woman this money 'for yer wean, hen, it's for yer wean' and the woman once again screamed, pulling the small child close to her. Her screams alerted other locals and a loud conversation between the now hysterical woman and some of her fellow villagers resulted in a several local men appearing. They weren't happy. Although not able to speak the local language the bus load of Tims were able to recognise that universal sign of an angry man pointing a shotgun at you as evidence that there might have been a misunderstanding.

The two pissed idiots who'd led the woman to believe they wanted to buy her baby backed slowly towards the bus.

As a footnote they discovered that at least one of the villages had sold them bottles of vodka filled with water and the Yugoslavian cigarettes aren't that good.

I've long ago given up trying to understand the Media House strategy for the Easedales. They become more unpopular and appear more incompetent with every passing day, that surely can't be the aim. I can only assume someone is paying or has paid the Easedales to front this, nothing else makes sense. No matter how thick skinned or intractable they might be there is no way their Rangers gig is worth the hassle for them now. Yet they continue, determined to cling on for no obvious benefit. So I can only assume the benefit isn't obvious.

Ashley's PR is fine though, with every passing day his reputation as shrewd, cold and ruthless is enhanced, the city institutions can relax safe in the knowledge he carries no sentiment and can't be swayed by public opinion, only money matters.

Apart from that I don't believe you've not read that book, I've seen those pictures of you on Facebook in tight lycra, no way a man of your age actually gets on a bike!

This is my new favourite thread. I've always known I'm a moron, it's gratifying to finally confirm it publicly.

Hang on, why isn't my picture on the front cover?

I think i've voted correctly this time.

That's quite the post BH. I'm not sure anyone is suggesting he's Andrew Carnegie but as CVs go his isn't bad. Aren't all successful business people basically 'super salesman' or have I missed something in the last 20 years?

I seem to be the only person who voted for the removal of James Easedale and Somers. Or maybe I've voted for them to stay. Well seen it was bloody accountants who created this poll.

Alas, this presupposes we have a team for them to be assimilated into. Knowing no-one of the current staff can only be a positive, who knows, maybe some of their good habits may rub off on impressionable youngsters like Black and Simonsen.

 

 

 

I doubt they know what standard they are letting themselves in for. I feel they'll start strongly then be dragged down to the pretty low level of the Championship. Hope I'm wrong, though.

 

Overall it's just another piece of business which makes no sense. Why not get them in on the 1st of January, rather than the 2nd of February? Why get half a team, instead of one or two or a whole team? As usual, everything Rangers does seems to be to the detriment of Rangers. It's crazy.

Yip, it's far from satisfactory. I just find myself measuring it against our normal scales of self harm, it's a skint knee rather than losing a limb.

I imagine that Newcastle not having a manager for most of January played a part in this. Carver was only confirmed as caretaker until the end of the season last week, I imagine if someone new had come in they'd have wanted all their players available. They're almost as dysfunctional as we are, so who knows.

Rangers managers have in the past been told they couldn't pick a player. Normally for financial reasons as going over a certain amount of games triggers a payment. This is different from being told you do need to pick someone of course.

I'd be surprised if being told to play someone isn't more widespread than we think. I doubt it happens with young players but I'd be really surprised if directors haven't told a manager he must play a 'star' player no matter their fitness, training or discipline etc. I've also heard of prominent players demanding certain other players are chosen and others aren't. This is not uncommon.

First thing to remember is the five players are entirely blameless in all this, they're doing what they're told. So a warm welcome to Rangers from me at least.

Like most people I've my reservations. Firstly from a footballing perspective parachuting in five players from one club will create a clique in the dressing room. These five will know nobody but each other, they'll be in a new city and they know it's a short term thing, assimilating them into a 'team' mindset will be a challenge.

They are inexperienced players albeit they might be talented. I'd expect even young players from an EPL side to be of a higher standard than most in our league, but attitude and workrate will determine that.

However had we brought in five fringe players from Chelsea or Man Utd I feel we'd be greeting this news with more enthusiasm. The fact it's Newcastle clearly means Ashley's hand is behind it, however we need new players so in the circumstances this might be as good as it gets.

Of all the stuff that's happened to us in the last few years, particularly the stuff Ashley has been behind or involved in this strikes me as the most benign. It's not ideal and it doesn't address the real problems we have and it's probably a bad portent for what he sees Rangers as. But in the grand scheme of things I can live with it for now.

Frankie, Zappa, do you want me to post the preview straight onto the forum, it's pretty much ready?

Great Andy, really enjoyed that.