Big Spliff

very true

On an unrelated subject, NC, glad to see your avatar has changed back. The previous one was unnerving. :shudder:

and that one isn't ?

1 Rangers (2) 1 50239 99.5%

2 Celtic (1) 1 58500 96.1%

3 Heart of Midlothian (10) 1 16284 90.4%

4 Falkirk (11) 1 6059 79.9%

5 Aberdeen (6) 1 16803 75.6%

6 Hamilton Academical (12) 1 3347 63.1%

7 Dundee United (5) 1 8253 58.0%

8 St Johnstone (9) 1 5220 48.9%

9 St Mirren (8) 1 4775 42.9%

10 Motherwell (4) 1 5093 37.0%

11 Hibernian (3) 1 6350 36.2%

12 Kilmarnock (7) 1 5307 29.2%

With the possible exception of Aberdeen (vs the bheasts) and Hearts (vs RFC) - albeit these are inflated due to the opposition, look at the home attendances in the SPL for the first home game of the season for each team. Fill % of capacity also shown.

7 out of 12 around or below the 6,000 mark.

Grim.

I haven't seen their 2009 accounts but I assume that they only made �£2m despite being in the CL due to their high wage bill.

 

They didn't spend big in Jan because they were so confident they would win the league without it.

 

they'll make some money from the revised europa Cup but I'm surprised that they have spent so much (relatively) this close season, but perhaps they have been forced to given their squad, in the same way as we had to last year.

 

I expect they will make a loss this year, but they have the scope to do so given the low level of debt. However they may start to get a bit more worried if they fail to win the league again over the next couple of years.

There's a link here if you can be arsed mate.

http://www.celticfc.net/news/stories/news_140809152149.aspx

Actually they've put it down to exceptionals and transfers etc - they made a big OP. Also useful that they show some info than RFC in terms of breakdown in a lot of cases. I do wonder if they'll turn a profit this year, and just wondering how they'll react next summer (esp if we retain the SPL, as you say).

I'd also say there is a good chance that their ST's are down as much as 7-8k. I read on VB today that the unofficial attendance on Saturday was 51k which has got to be a worry for them.

The 2008 figures are out though B_S. BD gave us June 2007 results and I am 100% sure that the June 2008 figures are out, otherwise we would be in some bother with late filing of accounts.

 

Yeah, when I was typing that it was later into my post that I realised BD was using 2007 figures and not 2008. So I am probably off track with my theory that there is inconsistency in the reporting of the debt levels.

Think dell was just using 2007 figs as an example mate (see new post above). The inconsistency is there it seems - precipitated by celtic's decision to re-categorise their pref. shares debt.

Either way, our's has been rising dramatically, while theirs has not unfortunatley.

DELL - so what do you think DD's up to ?

I was sure I saw it in some media outlets that our debt was running at as much as 30 million. Creative journalism then ? Or is it that our debt rose considerably since June 2007 ? I should spend more time myself looking at the numbers rather than throwing suggestions out there....

 

I am not suggesting they aren't within their rights to report it this way, not at all. I should have been clearer - my gripe is the manner in which the MEDIA report it.

 

Net debt is indeed net debt after cash, obviously. But the media should be reporting it the same for both clubs. Unless I am mistaken (which could easily be so) I am not convinced it is.

Hi Craig, thanks for chipping in.

When del comes back he'll say that the figures aren't out yet (due very soon) so nobody knows what the debt is at the moment. He'll also say that �£30m is a reasonable estimate give or take a few �£m's. He's already done the fag-packet on this and posted it.

On this basis, the media are reporting what is widely believed so I've no issue with that. In terms of reporting equally, yes but you need to start making adjustments and explaining accounting practices so (giving them the benefit of the doubt) I guess thats why the media don't bother.

The penalty was borderline imo. If he gave a free kick i wouldn't have complained too much. Likewise the sending off - could have been a red or a yellow, its down to the ref to make the call.

The way I see it, what comes around goes around. We got a 50/50 last minute penalty and we got the 3 points. Excellent. But some other day we'll be on the wrong side of something that costs us 2 or 3 points and we'll just have to put up with it.

I prefer to be 'in credit' in terms of the karma associated with bad decisions, for later in the season.

Accounting rules require elements of the Preference Shares and the Convertible Preferred Ordinary Shares to be classified as debt.

 

They want to try and make their accounts appear slightly better than they are so they use the phrase "bank debt" and ignore the �£3m that you refer to that they should add onto it.

 

Their 2007 accounts show their debt in the correct manner, but their 2008 accounts exclude the net debt note and they now tend to only refer to "net bank debt. (one of a number of changes they made in their 2008 accounts to try and make them appear better.)

 

Their net debt should be calculated as follows:

 

Cash 10,489

Bank loan (12,000)

Pref shares (3,027)

 

Total (4,538)

 

Hope this explains it without getting too technical.

 

 

Out of interest, why are you asking?

Thanks mate

Just reading stuff on-line yesterday and it triggered some questions really. First I was thinking about our reduced squad and our financial situation. Then I wandered into what celtic could do to us. Then I was wondering (again) why on earth they didn't bury us in January instead of signing Willo Flood. Then I remembered they only made �£2m profit last season despite playing in the CL.

Then I wondered what they'll do now that they've spent cash but probably won't be in the CL - I wonder if they calculate that they'll make a loss this season, and how they'll react? The I was wondering how much Desmond has taken out of celtic and what he'll do next. Preference shares, MON's included etc. So i fired up their recent report and that's when my mind REALLY started to wander

Can't shake the thought that (despite past performance) all could actually not be very well across the city. So the �£3m above is effectively future known liabilities relating to preference shares?

Perhaps a certain one or two of our residents could help me by explaining why celtic report their debt in the way they do?

"Bank debt (net of cash) = �£1.5m"

but also...........

Interest Bearing Liabilities/Bank Loan................... �£12m

Debt Element of Convertible Preference Shares .... �£ 3m

(from Annual report)

Cheers.

Motivation ...... I told you all how important it is last week ffs!

Well I love it tbh.

Or is it so far so good for mcculloch? I fear when we play tougher opposition he will be found out. But for the moment his goals are more than welcome.

It depends. If he's good on the position we might even find he excels against better opposition. Needs to watch with refs though.

A pleasant surprise so far though, long may it continue!

Indeed. Scottish football would have nothing to do with us if we moved to England.

TBH I'm not comfortable with that idea.

It smacks of the rich getting richer etc, and in the end the bubble bursts.

I would much rather Scottish football got stronger (including the National team) and Rangers got stronger with it - enabling us to improve our current position in Europe.

I think that's a substantial 10-year goal. How we'd do it is another matter.

Can we add a "sorry" icon thingmy please .......................^^^

If Arsenal put them out of the CL, they'll still have to play a Europa league qualifier before reaching the group stages. The qualifier will probably be against reasonable opposition well, as I think they'll need to play against one of the other teams that exited the CL qualifiers.

ahh didnt realise that mate, thank you.

Good idea Big Spliff.

 

My results were as follows:-

 

...............Actual..........................Mine.....points

Celtic .......5 v 2 St Johnstone ...... 4 v 0........1

Hamilton ...0 v 3 Aberdeen ........... 1 v 2........1

Motherwell 3 v 1 Kilmarnock .......... 2 v 1........1

St Mirren ..0 v 0 Dundee United ..... 1 v 2........0

Falkirk ......1 v 3 Hibernian ............ 0 v 1........1

fkn tidy bastard now i'll have to fix mine!

Interesting stats mate - esp the 52% one.

I suppose celtic have the chance now to pick up a few points with their (5?) Uefa Cup ties, which is good (in the world of co-efficients, if not the real one!).

Obviously it all depends, but it would be nice to get to Pot 2 and for the draw to be kind, giving us an outside chance of being second or if not, making 3rd a distinct possibility rather than a 50/50 shot.

................Actual......................Mine ....... points

Celtic ........5 v 2 St Johnstone ...4 v 1..........1

Hamilton..... 0 v 3 Aberdeen .......2 v 0 .........0

Motherwell ..3 v 1 Kilmarnock .....2 v 2 .........0

St Mirren.... 0 v 0 Dundee United 1 v 1..........1

Falkirk ........1 v 3 Hibernian .......1 v 2 .........1

My expectations are so low I'm quite happy with that actually

 

Murray Park was built for the progression of youth and it's not done too badly in the last few years.

 

Alan Hutton's �£9million move to Spurs virtually justified the place in one deal.

 

Would Alan Hutton have flourished if Rangers had been training at Ibrox? Or at Lesser Hampden? Or in Kinning Park? I’d like to think so. DId Murray Park make him the player he is? Did it really? Or was it a relatively short run of high profile games that got us the Ã?£9m?

This is positive spin, nothing more. I'd like to see a cost/benefit analysis of MP, taking the cost as the �£25m the Chairman recently said we've spent on it.

Done. Bet I come last

Not convinced, sorry.

thought it was in Aberdeen? or were the guys from Aberdeen?

�£2.8m as far as i know :devil:

Still no CB though.

Well guys I have to say the input on this thread is excellent. It would be magnificent if a big club like RFC could buck the trend and genuinely re-emerge in the guise a lot of people would prefer to see. Supporter input in real life as well as on-line is essential; it's never been clearer.

Ha ha. I know that feeling.

 

Will no doubt be on there at some point? Maybe start another pointless pissing contest on there.

cheers mate, maybe its just a shit thread