reaper

Try answering the question. You seem to have a real politician's knack of answering something which hasn't been asked.

 

Now... look at my post again... and tell me where I said Green wasn't a good businessman... might take you a while though.

 

Having said that, Where is the proof that he IS a good businessman ? Trust me, "creating a successful flotation" is not very difficult, particularly for the position we were in at the time - however, also lets not forget that a sizeable chunk of those funds that were realized from said flotation came from known associates of Green - cash for the boys if you will.

 

Also, tell me where I said that I think Green did nothing to save us. Again, you wont find me saying that.

 

You really are lacking in terms of actually reading a post and responding to what is asked. You are merely trying to twist people's comments, and that is hardly fair.

You will have to do better than that you can start by showing where I said that you said Green wasn't a good businessman,shall I wait, you can start by showing where I said that you said Green did nothing to save us, shall I wait, you appear to have difficulty in differentiating between questions and statements, maybe that is part of your over inflated ego.

Most forums have mods who remain neutral so they can mod properly a few here have nailed their colours firmly to the mast on one side of the debate, not politically clever at all, have a nice day.

wish I was so confident he saved us . Time and again I`ve seen twats like him lead investors a merry dance - usually I think , well , it`s their own money they can do as they like knowing the risks but this was different as it`s our club . To them it`s just another badly run business with assets to be raped , another opportunity to fleece the wee guy .

But it was the doyen of corporate governance who convinced the City to invest,

The prick wants out, completely, not back in. He is simply trying to get some shekels for his 1p a go shareholding. Not proving as easy for him as he thought. Which is nice.

Such ingratitude from a real trumpet.

Not true, Rangers never had 'our own ebt scheme'. But though I hate what Murray has done, he was quite right to demand an enquiry into the leaking of the information, nothing bold about it.

 

Bold, on the other hand, is you stating as fact on Gersnet that he trousered £6m as an ebt beneficiary - funded by Rangers and not the Murray Group. I hope you can back it up.

Maybe you should understand the post before bumping your gums.

Trousered is your expression I wouldn't be so crude as his actions like Charlies were quite legal.

I've no specific knowledge on Cowdenbeath. Their size, league status and potential support suggest they'd be an unlikely source, I imagine the best their directors could hope for is to break even, I doubt they take much out the club as I doubt the club has much to take. But I could be wrong.

If you are simply using them as an example to demonstrate scale then there probably is little difference between them and the clubs you mention. But I can't be sure, they might be exceptionally well run and rely on no one, certainly I know Morton operate in the same way as Man City just on a very different scale.

 

But the point being made was surely about owners and directors taking money out of clubs, not putting money in? I doubt the owners of Man City will get a financial return on their 'investment', they derive other less tangible benefits of course.

 

I totally agree with you about players and their agents draining money out of the game, but it is something of a straw man. The discussion was about directors and shareholders taking money out of clubs for themselves. I see very little evidence of this happening in the UK, perhaps only a handful of examples at most.

There are far more people taking out than putting in and fans are left to pick up the pieces, I will leave it at that.

What's the point here Reaper? I'm trying to engage with you, trying to understand what you are getting at, you seem to have a contrary view on this and I'm trying to understand why you've formed it. But you won't engage, you won't explain and you won't back anything you claim up.

You seem to be stating that finding clubs where the owners 'put in' but don't 'take out' are harder to find than 'gnats piss'. I've given you a list of about 10 clubs where the opposite is true. Is my list wrong, have I misunderstood your view? I'm not trying to pick a fight I'm trying to understand, but it's not easy.

Professional football is a gravy train with more taking out than there are putting in, if fair play and finance rules were applied as they should not to many clubs if any would pass muster, is Cowdenbeath's owner paying the wages or part of any different to the financial doping of Man C Barc Real Madrid Monaco except on scale, the only mugs are us the fans who have had the peoples game stolen by manky agents greedy players and chairmen to frightened to challenge them all because of tv money calling the shots.

I think you're an asset to Gersnet dB, I'm always interested in your take on us, your distance and upbringing often gives you a fresh perspective which I enjoy. However, your intransigence on this subject and your failure to read between the lines is difficult to understand.

It is not STV who are bringing his name into disrepute, he is managing that perfectly well on his own. They highlight that point because it astounded many observers, including Strathclyde Police, when they were granted the licence. Make of that what you will.

I don't know what you know about the private taxi business in the West of Scotland, so here's a hint http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/3057045/Taxi-tycoon-Stevie-Malcolms-gangland-links.html and here's another http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7385384.stm

You're a smart guy dB, work it out.

Make of this what you will yes our wonderful legal system even if this one is English, never confuse the law with justice.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eight-years-in-prison-but-barry-george-is-refused-compensation-8467485.html

I'm trying, believe me. But again a riddle. You link back to the beginning of our conversation, no explanation, nothing to back up your 'theory' nothing new to help clear my fog. What am I missing here?

The meaning of life it would appear, I will leave you to it.

]I really struggle[/b] to understand some of your posts' date=' they're like riddles, my old age is clearly taking it's toll.

 

Yes those are my words, I know that, I typed them. Why do you disagree with them?

Aberdeen have been bankrolled by Milne, Dundee Utd were bankrolled by Eddie Thomson, Hibs were saved by Tom Farmer, John Boyle poured hundreds of thousands into Motherwell, the Moffat family ploughed millions into Kilmarnock which they eventually wrote off and gave the club away, despite this they still owe millions to their current owner, Ross County rely heavily on investment and soft loans from Roy MacGregor, until fairly recently Geoff Brown was paying players salaries out of his own pocket at St Johnstone and Hearts predicament is there for all to see.

These are simply the biggest examples, scratch a little deeper and you'll see that ICT, Hamilton Accies, Dunfermline, Morton and Raith Rovers are all indebted to their owners or directors.

None of those people have a hope of getting their money back far less making a profit on it.[/quote']

 

It's not difficult if you actually read a post.

 

http://www.gersnetonline.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?57300-Malcolm-Murray-Open-letter&p=426780&viewfull=1#post426780

Charles cementing his power base, wonder how long until he officially returns as opposed to pulling all the strings from afar.

Every penny of it from mih not rangers. Where do people get this crap from?

 

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Sir davy for it is he is clearly listed as a beneficiary of our own EBT scheme administered by MIH, the bold fellow even demanded a police inquiry into the leaking of such sensitive and private information.

So, in other words, no conclusion to the investigations, merely a settlement that suited both sides. Gotcha

No you really haven't at all.

Pray tell what money Charlie boy put down ? AFAIK Green didn't put a penny of his own money down....he assisted in finding investors and he was the "face" of the deal but I am not aware that he put any of his own coin in.

Are you seriously complaining about Charles being a good businessman and getting a big return for a relatively small investment in capital (every businessman's dream) but not input and creating a successful flotation, or perhaps you just don't think Charles done anything that still gave us a club to support or deserves any rewards for doing so.

Yet you don't need to wait for King's criminal investigations to conclude to cast guilt..... interesting

The fact that he has already been relieved of some 400 million rand by SA courts sort of leads me to conclude that he is as guilty as sin, how about you, you think he was robbed of his crooked gains ?

So its ok for the owners of rangers to take money out as long as its not illegal?

 

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Sir david can answer that one.

It did not.

 

Infact mih put in in sponsorship.

 

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Sir davy for it is he, took over six million out on an ebt.

David Murray didn't do anything illegal but it doesn't mean we can't heavily criticise his custodianship.

I admire your certainty on that, I will wait until criminal investigations are concluded, see who the net catches so to speak if anyone.

Who I claim are putting money in? What does that mean?

It's a fact that almost every club in Scotland relies on or has recently benefited from the largesse of an owner or shareholders. Some of the smaller clubs are pretty well run but almost every club in the SPL and Div 1 fall into this category. Do you disagree?

"have owners who put in but get no return" your words not mine and yes I do disagree, there was a stushie about the gravy train the other day, said it all.

That's simply not true. Pretty much every club in Scotland with the possible exception of Celtic have owners who put in but get no return. In England it is pretty much the norm too, football clubs are not normal businesses. Oh, and Real Madrid, Barca and Man U have debt that would startle most companies.

That's why football is a busted flush and up to its eyes in debt from the EPL to La Liga kept afloat only by tv money, if Sky were to go tits up the shit would really hit and all those who you claim are putting money in but in reality are living on tv money and very well at that will land right in the shit.

 

Because hes trousered 2.5 million of rangers money. Its very very simple .

 

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No it's not that simple if he trousered Rangers money that infers he stole it in common parlance, never mind your blue knights will be along God knows when and with whatever wheeze up their sleeves it won't be money, there again they may not be along as they won't be needed.

Well, obviously I'd rather they took as small a profit as possible spread over as long a period as possible. That would allow for more money to be ploughed back into the club, and hopefully lead to more success on the park.

 

I don't have anything particularly positive to say about either TBK or SDM. What I am saying is that in an ideal world I'd like us to be in the same position as many clubs, with owners who put money in rather than take money out. Is that so crazy?

What clubs would that be, not Real Madrid not Barca not Man u or the vast majority of the EPL or football in general. owners who put money in for no return are thinner on the ground than gnat's piss

Well, we have institutional investors. I'm sure you're aware that there are a bunch of groups and individuals looking to make a profit by taking more money out of the club than they initially put in. As I understand it, they're looking to make as good a profit as they can.

 

At low levels, spread out over time, it's not much of a problem. At high levels these outgoings could be a big drain on the club. It'll be hard to compete for the national title if we are carrying a much larger overhead than our main rivals. Every penny paid out to investors is one that can't be spent on strengthening the squad.

 

How much do you think we should be paying out each year? Wouldn't £0.00 be the best value?

Not to strangely that is how business works, or would you rather they take a loss for their risk and the club suffers the consequences, share issue, there may not have been a share issue if Green hadn't put cash rather than rhetoric down, we all know who spouted the rhetoric but kept their hands firmly in their pockets.

green has done nothing illegal.

 

but any right minded rangers fan would prefer the 2.5million he has taken out was still in the club.

 

the fact i think green has taken millions out is a scandal shouldn't need much explaining.[/QUOTE]

 

If he hasn't done anything illegal you need to explain it and why you have a constant hard-on for Charles.

All can be taken as tickety boo? Christ on a bike, that's a cracker! Things haven't been tickety boo at the club for well over a decade and the past 18 months are arguably the lowest point in the club's history. We've also probably got more liars and thieves filling their boots with hard working Bears' season ticket cash than ever before and yet everything is tickety boo? Give me strength!

So who exactly is filling whose pockets, do you mean the owners or something less subtle, and Walter is sitting back while all this is happening, a nice drama with less substance than a Charlie racist slur, give me strength indeed.

All it needs is for the chairman to take responsibility if any skulduggery is afoot and put it in the public domain, until then or until someone puts up and confirms bad people are doing bad things all can be taken as tickety boo.

Someone anyone take responsibility and stop all the innuendo.