BrahimHemdani

MF, I respect your balanced views as always. I did say on the original thread that the best way for fans to influence the outcome of the talks is to make their opinions known to their own clubs. However, SD is working hard behind the scenes to gain influence with the government and football authorities and if close to 5,000 people (a majority non trust members) take part in the survey then the results are meaningful and even if they are not influential of themselves they will provide credible evidence of opinion and stir further debate.

That's the only goal Beattie will score, a penalty in a closed door game :boogie: Would like to see Wylde get a run.................................... Where was Papac?

Press Statement Survey shows fan opposition to SPL Proposals Supporters Direct today published the initial findings from their comprehensive survey of fans on the proposed reforms to Scottish football. The survey highlighted that: There is strong opposition to the reduction of the top league in Scottish football to only ten teams across all supporters with 88% of fans opposing such a move: 93% of fans feel they have not been adequately consulted over the proposed changes Fans want a greater voice in the SFA with 87% supporting fan representation in the SFA. The survey, which is ongoing, has already canvassed the views of over 3,000 supporters from clubs across the whole spectrum of Scottish football ââ?¬â?? from the SPL and SFL through to Junior and non-league clubs and results are currently being collected and analysed by independent research agency, Red Circle Communications. Supporters Direct Development Manager James Proctor said: ââ?¬Å?These findings raise some serious questions for everyone who cares about the future of Scottish football. There is a clear gap between what supporters have been telling us they want and the proposed reforms that are being put forward by some SPL clubs. There is strong opposition to the reduction of the top league to only ten teams and a clear desire for a larger rather than smaller top league. The option for a larger league is clearly one that fans want and should be thoroughly examined. He added "Without fans there is no professional game and if fans feel that they havenââ?¬â?¢t been listened to then that can only be bad for Scottish football. The worrying aspect of this study is that more than nine out of ten football fans donââ?¬â?¢t feel they have been adequately consulted on these proposals. The key to restoring the financial health of the game in Scotland is to put on attractive games that supporters want to watch. Therefore we would urge the SPL, SFA, SFL and others to work with Supporters Direct, its member trusts and fans to help change Scottish football for the better and ensure that we have make the right changes to help create a modern structure with clubs fit for the future and where our game can flourish". SD are going to close the survey on Wednesday evening and work on a fuller report to issue prior to the now cancelled SPL meeting which has been re-scheduled for Jan 4th.

No argument with you on that. Actually in the country coefficients Rangers are responsible for 9 of our 15 points (60%) so obvioulsy more than the rest put together. And even Motherwell with 3.5 scored more than Celtic with 2. But as you rightly point out its the 0.5 for Dundee United and the big 0.0 for Hibs that are dragging us down. We're struggling two places behind Cyprus and 11 behind Israel this season. If it wasn't for our 2007/08 run, we'd be keeping company with Ireland in the overall rankings. Thing is that's with a 12 team league, what I'm not sure about is how going back to 10 would make that level of performance any better?

How about 4 up/4 down perhaps, 2 automatic and the other 4 in play offs for 2 places. I think Italy has 4 up/4 down and it does give smaller clubs the incentive to strive for the top league and then get the benefits. It would also improve the quality of the lower league. That would mean that half the 16 would be involved in relegation battles and most of the top 8 would have a chance of Europe. I accept there would be a quality issue, it's not a perfect world!

The preliminary results have gone out on a Press Release this afternoon and I can post them here tomorrow morning. The survey will remain open until Wed night. Thanks again to all who responded.

Well you have to give him some credit, he's made a player of Charlie Adam! and he's not afraid to speak his mind. Of course, Platini has nothing to do with it as he's President of UEFA not FIFA but surely they knew it was too hot there before they awarded them the World Cup, crazy decision.

The intention now is to publish later this week, certainly before the meeting as you suggest.

All I can say is watch this space for the survey results!

At least you know the price of bread

Sorry, I did mean to answer that point as well, though I think it is self evident from my reply that he was not elected, he is an employee and he does not speak or claim to speak on your behalf. There is nothing whatsover preventing you or any group of supporters putting forward your views to Rangers or the SPL, whether they give you a hearing or take your views on board is another matter. For what it is worth, SDM agrees with you about a 10 team league, or at least he did a couple of years ago.

Well, rbr, to take your last first. James Proctor "the wee bloke" (which is correct, he is small in height) is the Development Manager of SD Scotland. As such one of his jobs is to promote the Trust movement in Scotland. However, as I have said elsewhere, the Scottish Trusts themselves have asked SD to have more of an advocacy role for supporters views than they have had in the past. What is worth remembering in that context is that whilst there are many different tentacles of the Rangers Assembly, that is not necessarilly so in smaller clubs where the Trust and the Supporters Association are more closely related. So the views of the such and such Utd Trust may well be similar to the views of such and such Utd fans as a whole. The survey itself was never meant to be exhaustive, it was taken as snap shot of views on he proposals being considered including: �An SPL 1 and an SPL 2 consisting of ten teams in each league. �The remaining clubs below this will be organised in regional leagues (based on location). �An earlier start to the season and the introduction of a winter break. �The potential for top league teams to enter a reserve or 'B' team in SPL2 or lower leagues. The intention was to find out the views of football supporters as a whole, NOT JUST TRUST MEMBERS on the changes that are being proposed. To that end all respondents were asked to tell other supporters about it and get them to give their views too. I can tell you that as of now, close to 3,000 people have completed the survey and the results willl be independently analysed by professionals in the field. A majority of the respondents are NOT TRUST MEMBERS. That said, SD do not claim to speak for all supporters and were not in fact consulted on this issue. The issues that SD disussed with McLeish were: social value of football clubs, community ownership and supporters representation on the SFA. All of these are included in the Report. Perhaps it is instructive the he did not consult fans on the structure of the Leagues! Your own views seem to be in sympathy with McLeish inasmuch as he puts the financial arguments ahead of the pure football arguments. In my opinion, there are a number of teams in the SFL with recent SPL experience and good enough stadia and decent levels of support e.g. Falkirk, Dunfermline, Dundee, Partick Thistle to make up a 16. Personally, I would prefer to see these teams once a year at Ibrox and visit them once year in the league rather than the present set up and overall I believe it would strengthen our football but it is all a matter of opinion. I respect yours. Obviously a 16 or 18 team SPL would mean a reduction in finance from league games so there would have to be an alternative such as an extended league cup. I found it very interesting that the Chairman of cash strapped Kilmarnock said he would be prepared to sacrifice one or two old firm games a season for a better league set up. I don't have any objections to play-offs so long as there is at least one automatic place for relegation/promotion. I hope this answers some of your concerns. By the way, I understand that the SPL meeting on Monday may be postponed because of the weather; if so SD will hold off publishing their results.

The only problem that I see with that is that Rangers and Celtic need teams to play against and if they get all the money then there won't be any teams to play against or the ones that are left will be so bad that we'll beat them 10-0 every week, how exciting would that be? There's no game without a referee and there's no game without opposition. However, unlike the referees, we can't bring in teams from Israel and Poland to play against. Scottish football has always existed on the bounty from the old firm be it gate receipts, TV money or transfers; I can't see how it will ever be any different.

I don't see any need to reduce the argument to that level. I have just listened to his comments on the iplayer and I didn't hear him support one size of league over any other. It is self evident that there are far too many so called "senior football" teams in Scotland, who would only be accorded non-league status, if they even existed in other countries; but there is a legitimate argument about the size of the SPL1, that essentially revolves around whether you are content with playing the other teams 4x a season or not. Personally, I have had enough of it and I haven't heard one manager or player speak in favour of it. I think we have just about enough decent teams in Scotland to make up a 16 and playing once each home and away would make each game much more meaningful. I would go for a straight two up, two down but wouldn't object to play offs if that is the majority opinion. More than 2,500 have contributed to the survey, so the results should be a meaningful test of opinion.

I accept that both in terms of logistics and politics it is at best arguable whether RST or CST are representative of either Club's supporters as a whole but across SD Scotland there are: 34 Supportersâ�� Trusts �£3.5 Million investment in football clubs 15,000 members approx. 25 Trusts with shares in their football club 14 Directors on Football Club Boards 300 Volunteer Directors 2 Re-formed Clubs (Clydebank FC & Gretna 2008 FC) 2 Clubs owned by Supporters (Clyde FC & Stirling Albion FC) So I would argue that it is not unreasonable to consult SD on supporters views and, of course, the survey is open to all, trust members or not. Preliminary results will be published tomorrow and a final report on Wednesday.

It's a fair comparison if you look at the coefficients, they are three places ahead of us this year and 14th to our 15th in the full 5-year standings. If Rangers earn a few more points we'll move above them, as all their teams are out. Meanwhile back at the survey, there have been in excess of 2,500 responses and SD Scotland will issue a preliminary report tomorrow ahead of the SPL meeting on Monday. Thanks again to all who responded.

SD has much stricter rules now.

SD has rules and a code of conduct and it is open to any member trust to complain about the conduct of any other trust. Ultimately a trust found to have brought the movement into disrepute could have its membership revoked or not renewed.

I completely agree with Zappa that a 16 team league is the ONLY logical solution for Scotland. I once put this to SDM but he assured me that the turkeys would never vote for Xmas. If we NEED more matches, a re-introduction of an old style League Cup, guaranteeing the 16, six more games each in four-team sections would make up a reasonable 36 matches. 10 groups of 4, winners + 6 best second place teams move into the last 16, which would be a straight knock out. If Rangers and Celtic were seeded in the group stages then 6 of the 16 would be guaranteed 4 old firm games a season and successful teams in the other sections would also benefit. By the way, it is my understanding that the proposal for 3x14 also is predicated on playing 2x per season for 26 matches and a similar league cup to my proposal.

Unlike the FSF in England, there is no organisation representing fans in Scotland other than SD. There is a memorandum of agreement between FSF and SD recognising that SD is the representaive forum for football supporters in Scotland and clearly McLeish recognised this fact. 29 of the senior clubs have trusts in full or associate membership of SD Scotland and there are 5 other trusts not in membership. Without going into detail some recent events have shown that SD nationally can bring together even the most diverse interests of Rangers and Celtic Trusts. Nominations currently are being sought for a new Scottish Council of SD that will have wide responsibilities and powers. It is scheduled to meet for the first time next March/April.

Thank you all for your comments and for those who have taken part in the survey. The horse has most certainly not bolted as although McLeish stated a preference for 2x10, it is up to the SPL to decide and it needs a minimum of 11 of the current 12 in favour; so there may well be an impasse and then hopefully the fans views will be taken more into account. SD will publish the results to that end. If there is sufficient response then SD may try to pre-empt the decision by publishing early. SD did not wish to influence the result by advancing any arguments which are well rehearsed in any event and some of them are included in the Mcleish report [pages 58-59].

These are the possibles: Spartak Moscow, CSKA Moscow, Zenit St Petersburg; Dynamo Kiev; Ajax, Twente Enschede, Eindhoven; Manchester City, Liverpool; Sporting, Braga, Porto; Bayer Leverkausen, Stuttgart; Villarreal; PSG.

Henry McLeish's Report Part Two on governance, leadership and structures in Scottish Football has been published today. http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/HenryMcLeishReviewofScottishFootball/Review%20Scottish%20Football%20Pt2%20FINAL.pdf It seems to me that it is no coincidence that the SPL has spent all week promoting a new two-division of 10 clubs set up this week and will make a decision on it next Monday, which is one of McLeish's main recommendations. Supporters Direct (the umbrella organisation for Supporters Trusts) was the only fans' organisation consulted by McLeish. SD's submission highlighting: social value, community ownership and fans representation has been quoted almost verbatim on pages 69-70 and has been incorporated in a number of the recommendations, especially: 13. National organisations representing fans and supporters require greater respect and acknowledgement from within the game and this should be reflected in the work of football organisations including the SFA Council. 28. The Council of the SFA should become more representative of the diverse interests of the game including, supporters, players, managers, coaches and referees. There is a need to create an independent or lay perspective within the Council. You can have your say on some of the main recommendations here http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/scottishfootball

It was a dive pure and simple. Yes, there was hand on him but it wasn't even a push far less enough for the headlong sprawl. Embarrassing actually. He was embarrassing in Bursa too. First two challenges were fouls that were not penalised, then committed 4 that were and got booked all in 29 mins, which is the same record as McCulloch in 5 full games, Whittaker and Weir in 6 games. Anyone care to bet that he doesn't score a goal for us?

SD Scotland is conducting a quick survey to get fan opinion on the SPL/Henry McLeish proposals for the reform of Scottish football. SD Scotland was the only fans' organisation consulted by Henry McLeish prior to publication of Part Two of his Report. Have your say on the vital issues affecting Scottish Football. Find the survey here http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/scottishfootball