BrahimHemdani 1 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) I thought it might be best to go straight to the horses mouth so to speak and then start a new thread with the following which is from the UK agent for the "railway system". How the SPL / clubs choose to sell tickets will be down to them. In Germany (and I would suggest that this is the most practical way) your ticket simply says 'Block A', 'Block B' etc. with the number of tickets issued for each block being equal to the number of seat spaces (or double that if they use the two-step configuration). Strict barcode access control systems and stewarding checks ensure that only people with tickets for the relevant block gain access to it. The German equivalent of the Green Guide also specifies the maximum capacity of any one block. Clubs could issue numbered tickets, but as the poster mentions it would not be easy to manage ... and would defeat one of the benefits of standing, i.e. of being able to move if you find yourself next to someone you don't like and/or being able to find a space with more room if you are attending with friends that don't normally go with you. For the club there is also a benefit in having 'unreserved' spaces in that it will encourage fans who are keen on getting their favourite place to turn up early ... and that means more pies being sold! (If the clubs use their initiative, they'll have vendors wandering around the standing area pre-match, so that fans who don't want to move and lose their good spot are also tempted to buy stuff). Hope that answers the question. Bottom line is: it's a blank sheet of paper and it will be for the clubs and the league to define their own rules and practices. Edited December 20, 2011 by BrahimHemdani 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I thought it might be best to go straight to the horses mouth so to speak and then start a new thread with the following which is from the UK agent for the "railway system". How the SPL / clubs choose to sell tickets will be down to them. In Germany (and I would suggest that this is the most practical way) your ticket simply says 'Block A', 'Block B' etc. with the number of tickets issued for each block being equal to the number of seat spaces (or double that if they use the two-step configuration). Strict barcode access control systems and stewarding checks ensure that only people with tickets for the relevant block gain access to it. The German equivalent of the Green Guide also specifies the maximum capacity of any one block. Clubs could issue numbered tickets, but as the poster mentions it would not be easy to manage ... and would defeat one of the benefits of standing, i.e. of being able to move if you find yourself next to someone you don't like and/or being able to find a space with more room if you are attending with friends that don't normally go with you. For the club there is also a benefit in having 'unreserved' spaces in that it will encourage fans who are keen on getting their favourite place to turn up early ... and that means more pies being sold! (If the clubs use their initiative, they'll have vendors wandering around the standing area pre-match, so that fans who don't want to move and lose their good spot are also tempted to buy stuff). Hope that answers the question. Bottom line is: it's a blank sheet of paper and it will be for the clubs and the league to define their own rules and practices. As I said in another post in Dortmund the control is very poor. The ticket control points are about 50-100 meters away from the stadium and easy to sneak past. In our group we had tickets for the other side of the stadium but all who wanted dodged the control and went to the standing area. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 0 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I was going to mention this two-step config' BH because that's what the "Hi-Rail" system at Hoffenheim is designed for as far as I know. As the name suggests, the rails are higher/taller to allow for two large steps between each rail and the two large steps can accomodate two rows of fans per row. On European nights they would unlock the seats and there would only be space for one row of fans per row. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
26th of foot 5,859 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I remember standing at numerous games in my first 25-30 years of attending football. There is a phenomenonthat may be covered in the title of the proposal ie SAFE standing? I don't know but please allow me to remind/inform folks of the reality of standing at football. Obstructed views are a real problem. You may pick your space 10-15 minutes before kick-off and because of the mobility of those in the crowd, it can vanish before, during, or after kick-off due to taller guys standing in front of you. My memories of many big games were based on seeing 70-80% of the pitch through an aperture of heads and shoulders. Sways will return. An involuntary movement by a doze or so guys at the back of the terrace(when say Rangers hit a post/bar), gathers momentum on the way down. It's a snowball, gathering strength and pace down the terrace. Grounds where the rake was steepest, old Dens Park and Easter Road would always lead to those at the front(usually children) jumping the retaining wall to avoid crushing. I have seen twisted ankles and broken legs as the result of sways. I remember Ian'Ted'McDougal scoring at ra Piggery, the shot went in off the far post. The sway began, was momentarily arrested, and restarted. It ran down for 50 yards, a breadth of similar dimension. A huge gap appeared on the terrace as those caught up were swept away. You could see dozens of individual shoes in the gap, the strength swept folks out their shoes. I do not want to see a return of those most regular incidents. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 0 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) The sways like the old ones can't possibly happen with all the barriers in place using these German rail systems 26th. Also, the view isn't restricted like the old tarraces because in these systems the person in front of you is standing on a significantly lower step. Here's some photos of the standing section in some German stadiums: Hi-rail seat system at Hannover - Hi-rail seat system at Hoffenheim - They have them at Wolfsburg too and they were more recently installed at the remodelled Werder Bremen stadium. Stuttgart have remodelled this year as well and installed the hi-rail system in sections which will hold 10k standing fans. Edited December 21, 2011 by Zappa 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrahimHemdani 1 Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 This additional information was provided by the UK agent today: I should also have pointed out that in Dortmund the vast majority of the main standing area at the home end is an open terrace and does not use rail seats, as being proposed by Neil Doncaster. In Dortmund they only use rail seats at the very back of that stand, the rest is one huge terrace ... which is clearly NOT what is being proposed. In Hoffenheim the away end is 'pure' rail seats, i.e. compactly arranged along every row. In the home end they remove several of the rows for domestic games to give a semi-terrace appearance ... but that again is not what is being proposed for Scotland / England. It's quite important that this message is got across. People should not look at pictures of open terraces at some German grounds and mistake that for what is now being proposed for the UK under the term 'safe standing'. What Neil Doncaster has said the SPL will entertain is standing areas fitted with rail seats. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 0 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Something which I think is worth pointing out is that these rail seat systems aren't cheap to buy and installing them in a section at Ibrox would require a LOT more work than just ripping out the existing seats and installing the rail(ing) system. When I first started thinking about this a good while back when the subject was first mentioned, I initially thought that maybe it could be quite an easy job to install them at Ibrox. Having looked into it further though, I'm absolutely positive that it would be a hell of a lot of work because the whole section of concrete steps in the section they would be getting installed would need to be redesigned, ripped out and rebuilt. That complicates things from a design & cost perspective if it was only a small section, so raises a question as to where it would be possible/sensible to do it at Ibrox. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 0 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 It's a difficult one because it WOULD be possible to do it without ripping out all the concrete in a section and rebuilding it to a new design, but that would mean sacrificing the common two-step design of the hi-rail system and the potential to increase capacity in that section for domestic fixtures. It would also mean higher costs in actually purchasing the rail system because more rails would be needed if the existing steps were to remain in place instead of rebuilding to the two-step design. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54andcounting 0 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) I don't like this 'rail' type standing area it's more like a place where you'd keep cattle at milk time. What's wrong with Rangers ripping out the seating in the 'enclosure' and sticking in random 'lean on rails' like in the old days. I take on board what 26th is saying about sway and all that, but in the Rangers enclosure the depth isn't going to cause that problem, some guy's on here will remember that enclosure after Ibrox was rebuilt - it carried an excellent atmosphere and when it was taken from us it was a sad day. Maybe this 'safe seating' law is flawed, on what grounds would it be 'unsafe' to open up the enclosure for standing room only? Edited December 22, 2011 by 54andcounting 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrahimHemdani 1 Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 Maybe this 'safe seating' law is flawed, on what grounds would it be 'unsafe' to open up the enclosure for standing room only? For the same reasons that it wasn't safe before. I well remember as a teenager in the 60's going to games and the dilemma was whether to stand with a barrier in front or behind you. In front was the obvious choice for comfort but the barrier behind you was more protective. Also you had to be early to get a barrier at all. This system overcomes all those problems; but so far as I know it is not the only one that is allowed in the pilot schemes. It will be up to the Clubs to demonstrate to the Police and local authorities that anything they want to instal is "safe". I don't see any reason why Rangers couldn't do what you suggest provided they installed appropriate safety systems. Post Hillsborough we are living in a different world. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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