Parliament debate: HMRC and Scottish Football - LIVE NOW

[der Berliner 3,251]

Thomas Docherty ... is on right now, btw.

[Frankie 8,151]

Pete Wishart makes some good points but speaks for far too long...

[der Berliner 3,251]

Dunno who the chap (the Welshman who spoke just ahead of the minister) is who just speaks/spoke, but he talks a lot of sense.

Edited February 29, 2012 by der Berliner

[Stimpy 0]

1500: Disappointed that few Scottish MP's attended. "Biggest crisis affecting the game".

1507: Face of Scottish football changing.

1508: Are members nervous to discuss Rangers? Tough to debate without some people taking issue.

1508: Doesn't excuse it. It deserves to be dealt with sensitively. "There has to be a solution". Inconceivable to imagine Scottish football without Rangers.

1509: No Rangers will impact on SPL's ability to go on. Wider economies for all of Scotland. Perth MP cites example of his own town. Hotels, restaraunts, bars etc etc.

1510: No Rangers, no Sky, no Old Firm. Iterated directly that no Rangers would cancel the contract.

1511: "Will Rangers always survive, is the true knock on small clubs not getting payments?"

1512: Old Firm bring in 190 million pounds, 200 million pounds spent on football, 9000 jobs and Rangers bring in 56 million to Glasgow directly.

1513: Football in a role in the community.

1513: 3.2 million fans, 76 million watch games. Big Business.

1514: Many clubs teetering, uses St Johnstone (surprise) as good example of a club ran well. Mentions Dundee, Livi and Gretna. Implies Hearts.

1515: SPL is different to England (shocking). Market dictates that clubs spend. Clash with falling gates in a competitive entertainment market.

1516: Everyone has to pay their tax. Going forward paying tax has to be paid. Everyone has sent letters on behalf of small businesses asking for special cases to be considered to HMRC. Rangers must be one of them. It's important enough and in a big enough mess. Total disaster.

1517: What Craig Whyte did with Ticketus was appalling.

1518: Issues outstanding, payment to other clubs. Redundancies over next few days. Impact of administration on jobs and careers.

1518: Scottish Govt offers assistance to people losing jobs, contact with administrators.

1519: Scottish Govt offering all help to the Scottish Open, including money. Should this happen to the SPL?

1519: Money in training and grassroots of about 40-50 million. Issues in investing in Scottish football. Sectarian chanting, mentions the legislation.

1520: "I went to the Killie game. Everyone was clear but the legislation was not clear and not workable."

1521: Hope that HMRC work sensibly, secure their liabilites and work with Rangers.

 

1523: Two broad sets of remarks. One, importance of football clubs as cultural communities and integral parts of communities. Rangers have been a standard bearer for Scotland. A great club, prompted the debate. The most successful club in the world for national titles. It's right we discuss such a great club today. Two, role of money in sport. Transparency in financing and sustainability.

1526: Role of HMRC and government perhaps to look at financing and transparency in football for the future? Clubs are more than businesses. Or to collect taxes from business, no matter how important?

1527: Tax is as important to wider community as football.

1528: Great clubs even need to pay taxes, regret Rangers couldn't pay the £9 million. Also looking at possible tax avoidance. EBT's brought up.

1529: Assurances sought that the minister understands the EBT case and to consider the wider cultural issues HMRC must consider.

1530: Given the reduction of local HMRC staff (sped up by Tories, started by Labour), loss of local knowledge, are the people dealing with Rangers understanding of the financial nexus of Rangers in local economy and other clubs finances and cultural importance.

1531: Does the minister understand how important Rangers is? Is he certain HMRC are?

1532: Particularities in Rangers re: Whyte's running of the club. Emblematic though of problems sport is having with money now. Global marketplace where govt have too little control and insight into the rationale for changes.

1533: Alternative models of ownership needed, govt should be involved. FC United fan owned, transparent. May be the key to the future for policy for govt into ensuring transparency in ownership, management and sustainability.

1534: HMRC have a role but competition organisers should be first whistleblowers.

1535: HMRC must reflect on why clubs were created. Rangers not created to make money but to represent community. HMRC maybe not dealing even handedly, individual cases argue it. In Rangers case, in public eye on the global stage, HMRC must look at wider financial and cultural disbenifits of a Rangers collapse.

 

1537: Issue a significant one. Provides jobs and stimulus. Feel good factor if a club is successful. Important revenue put in by tax. Over a billion paid by football.

1538: Exchequer acutely aware of the knock on effect of a clubs collapse.

1539: Govt and HMRC have helped clubs meet their obligations.

1539: Can't share specifics on Rangers, customer confidentiality.

1540: Can the exchequer confirm that the exchequer were aware that Rangers had not paid tax since May?

1540: Limits to what can be said. All can be said is HMRC have assured that in cases of this kind debts are given close attention at all times. I'd be surprised if there hadn't been discussion to get payment. Ministerial involvement: Kept informed of significant developments such as court proceedings, HMRC took no advice from ministers, Scottish Govt discussed...HMRC explained to First Minister a customer had problems paying debt and a timescale on when they'd seek administrations. HMRC didn't seek or take advice.

1543: What advice did Salmond offer?

1543: That is not known by the exchequer.

1544: Has HMRC been told of how important Rangers are? Not just a club?

1544: HMRC are aware.

1545: HMRC offers support to all businesses. Allowing business to spread payments past due date. Business payment support service. Help for short term financial difficulties. HMRC will probe repeat requests which highlights problems.

1547: Tax must be paid. Govt committed to levelling playing field for those who pay taxes. Some clubs have a poor payment compliance record. Not payment on profits. PAYE, NI deducted from employees. Using that money to fund business, money which was never theirs.

1549: Not fair on tax payers regardless of why it happens.

1549: No one club should benefit simply because it funds itself through not paying PAYE.

1550: Open sharing of payment plans present in England and Ireland. Being explored in Scotland.

1551: Will HMRC contact other Scottish clubs to see what assistance might be required as a result of Rangers situation? Also will HMRC be able to seek a bond to get money back if tax is not paid?

1551: From April it will be possible. HMRC will listen sympathetically to any approach from another club where it's caused difficulties. Onus is on the club.

1552: How will HMRC reward good businesses?

1553: Should be takes as given that taxes get paid. Football itself gets to grips, difficulties themselves if obligations aren't met.

1555: Assured that HMRC have the skills to understand the local issues.

1557: Assure that HMRC is working with the administrators and creditors to get the best solution to creditors and the club. Administration is there to save the club.

 

From elsewhere:)

[der Berliner 3,251]

You can actually click the link I gave above and see it in full length again.

[der Berliner 3,251]

While we are on that topic, just noted this ...

 

Port Vale hit by winding-up petition

 

Port Vale have been served with a winding-up petition by HM Revenue & Customs over an unpaid tax bill.

[Zappa 0]

While we are on that topic, just noted this ...

 

Port Vale hit by winding-up petition

 

Port Vale have been served with a winding-up petition by HM Revenue & Customs over an unpaid tax bill.

 

Yep, HMRC are trying to put the fear of death into UK football clubs just now. They slammed Portsmouth again shortly after we went into administration and now Port Vale and in both cases it was for a relatively small amount of money. Have to say that I'm surprised they were so lenient with Hearts though. They threatened Hearts with a winding-up order last year over unpaid taxes and it took Hearts months and months to cough up what they owed, only finally paying they're tax bill the day Rangers went into administration.

[der Berliner 3,251]

It makes you wonder though - and one of the chaps debating were asking a question about it - why it takes HMRC from May to February to force the club to pay PAYE and VAT and whatnot. Why do they wait till we rack up 9m+ in outstanding payments? If you - the normal person - don't pay within 4 weeks after the amount is due, they usually give you a warning shot, then come haring down after you big time. Here they discussed with the owner. A touch strange this, even if this amount does include these 4m+ of the small HMRC bill or not, as Whyte intimated.

[der Berliner 3,251]

Just noted the Scotsman' article about this.

 

Actually, I find us keeping gate receipts from the Dunfermline and Dundee United games pretty shameful indeed and hope the administrators see to that quickly, regardless of these clubs' status amongst the creditors. The word stature and dignity spring to mind.

[GovanAllan 0]

Just noted the Scotsman' article about this.

 

Actually, I find us keeping gate receipts from the Dunfermline and Dundee United games pretty shameful indeed and hope the administrators see to that quickly, regardless of these clubs' status amongst the creditors. The word stature and dignity spring to mind.

 

I agree to a point DB about the stature and dignity of Rangers but it's a two way street and I haven't seen much dignity coming our way of late especially from that baldy twat Thompson, we should deduct the money he made double charging the Rangers fans for one game. Then I might be inclined to show the prick some dignity.