JohnMc

That's a fair point and with our recent history and the perilous state of football finances in general one worth having front of mind. European football is littered with clubs who reached for the stars and fell a great distance afterwards, we all need somewhere to land should that happen. 

Actually, on the money bubble point, this might prove important if true - https://www.ft.com/content/80c79e49-3f9b-4ca9-866c-9f39f38683c1?shareType=nongift "BT has opened talks with a number of potential investors as it considers a sale of its sports broadcasting operation, looking to focus on its core broadband and telephony business and blow the whistle on the content business."

From what I can see the Dutch/Belgian league is replacing their national leagues and is viewed by Uefa as a domestic league. The winners of it will then go into the Champion's League, runners up into Europa and so on. I don't know how promotion and relegation work. There are currently talks between the Irish League and the League Of Ireland over a combined North and Republic domestic league now too. 

In any combined league it probably won't be difficult to point out the clubs who'll be more successful. Ajax, Feyonoord and Anderlecht are simply bigger clubs from bigger cities than Ghent, Willem or Alkmaar and enjoy the advantages that brings. In theory, with equal resources, you'd expect Rangers to be competitive in any domestic league after a couple of seasons. Our support and club structure and culture should allow us to be competitive. Famous last words of course.

Personally I think combined domestic leagues is inevitable, it's just a matter of how long it'll be before they happen. The only other question is which version we join. I would prefer if the Scottish league could improve and we didn't move too, but it just seems the momentum isn't in that direction. That said if the money bubble in football bursts, and while it's unlikely it does seem like a ceiling might have been reached, then maybe there's a big reset coming for all clubs. 

1 hour ago, DMAA said:

That’s interesting. Presumably, the gate receipts being split 50-50 went way back and though and this didn’t change the fact that the old firm always dominated, so it seems to me that it was the combination of exceptional managers at those clubs along with Rangers being cash strapped for a spell due to investing in Ibrox that were the primary causes. Celtic then had their own financial problems then of course which allowed the dominance to be challenged to another few years. 

Celtic's financial problems came later, largely by trying to keep up with Rangers while still being run like a local bowling club. Bosman and freedom of movement can't be overlooked DMAA, that has had a massive effect on football. Aberdeen had players like Willie Miller and Alex McLeish and they couldn't leave without Aberdeen agreeing, even if their contracts were up. Both of those players were exceptional, and could have played at a far higher level (to be fair they played at World Cups and in the latter stages of European competition so they did pretty well). Today a player like Miller or McLeish would have left Aberdeen by the time he was 21 with Aberdeen getting a nominal amount. It's led to wage inflation and agent fees spiralling to absurd levels and on balance has probably not been good for the sport overall. That said Aberdeen's salaries were pretty close to the salaries Rangers and Celtic were paying prior to Souness. 

38 minutes ago, DMAA said:

The fact is though that an Atlantic league is simply not realistic, everyone knows it would be fiercely opposed by UEFA and it would also be less popular with our own fans. I've seen a couple of polls among our fans on joining the English set up and both came out at about 70% in favour.

Strangely I think it's more likely than us joining any English league is. Currently UEFA is opposed to combined leagues but that opposition seems to be softening. Suggestions of a combined Dutch/Belgian league and a 'Balkans' league haven't been shot down by Uefa, indeed they've signalled their tacit support. What that will mean for an Atlantic League is anyone's guess. The Dutch/Belgian league is slated to begin in 2025, whether they'd invite us or some Scandinavian sides into it is a possibility. The reason I can't see us going into an English league is I don't think there's any appetite among English clubs to have us in their league. Whereas Dutch and Belgian clubs might well look at us and see a decent support, similar quality and the potential to open up UK broadcast contracts and sponsors who otherwise might not be too interested in it. 

As I've said elsewhere in this thread what fans want never features highly on decision makers agenda. 

Double post. 

4 hours ago, Scott7 said:

Is that not why they’re in the team?

Undoubtedly, which is why they receive more stick than others when we struggle. If you look at someone like Morelos, even if he's not scoring goals, his work rate and running are obvious and the support tend to cut him a bit more slack. I suspect many of us don't think Hagi or Aribo work as hard as Morelos, so when they're not producing their primary job; creating openings, then some feel they're not contributing anything. 

I think Aribo's problem is if he isn't creating chances he looks like he isn't doing anything. Hagi's like that too. I actually think both work hard when they don't have the ball and their movement creates space for others, but a lot of that is unseen and not always appreciated. Aribo was great against Celtic a couple of weeks ago, then less effective against a very defensive St Johnstone, but the whole side struggled to break St Johnstone down. I think to many of us look to Aribo, Kent and Hagi to provide the spark and inventiveness that wins those types of games. 

If ever there was an Old Firm match to make your debut in it's this one. There's nothing but pride at stake, it's the perfect match for Simpson to start if Helander is out. Everything we do now should be about getting ready for next season. 

That said unless there are injuries I expect a midfield of Davis, Kamara and Arfield and an attack of Morelos, Kent and Aribo. Maybe we'll play Roofe instead of Morelos and maybe we'll give McLoughlin a game for the experience. We've options up front but defence and midfield are down to their bones and we don't have many alternatives. 

Can't see King getting a game unless we've more injuries than we know of. Could see him make a substitute appearance before the end of the season though. 

15 hours ago, DMAA said:

It’s all before my time, but I find it interesting that there was a period where old firm dominance was dented as late as the 80s. In 15 years, the top 2 was only Rangers and Celtic once. How did that happen? Because contrary to what many think, the record books show the old firm have always dominated, just not quite as much as they do today. Since 1890, the longest period without an old firm title winner is 3 years, which has happened twice. 

Rangers were rebuilding Ibrox during the late 70s and early 80s, had Rangers been able to invest that money on players it might have been a very different time for us. Also home gate receipts were split 50/50 with the away side, an enormous benefit for every other side in the league, there was very little TV money and sponsorship and no one had thought of corporate hospitality yet. So while Rangers and Celtic were still the richest clubs the gap between us and everyone else was much smaller than now. Also the gap between salaries in Scotland and England was much smaller, the top sides in England were paying more but nothing like the difference we see now. Footballers contract's were very different too, there was no Bosman rule then, the club decided if you stayed or left, the player had far less say in it. This allowed clubs to keep good players for longer or cash in on them when they wanted. Lastly Aberdeen and Dundee Utd were managed by geniuses, something we can all hope never happens again! 

17 hours ago, DMAA said:

In reality, most Rangers fans would rather a longer bus/train journey every other Saturday than not being able to attend at all, realistically. It is actually easier to get to Manchester than it is to get to Dingwall.

From Ness? ?

I understand your point but in reality if we assume most Rangers supporters are living in Central Scotland, (simply because most people live there) then away trips to Motherwell, Hibs, St Mirren, Kilmarnock, Hamilton, Livingston, Celtic and St Johnstone are short journeys and even Ross County and Aberdeen are hardly treks. I'm not convinced we'd get much more of an away ticket allocation at EPL grounds either. Belgium, Holland and Denmark aren't much further away than London for most of us. 

While any Atlantic type league would involve international travel and make it probably prohibitively expensive for most people to attend regularly, I suspect many would take in a couple of away trips each season making a weekend of it. Most of the guys I know who go on European away trips seem to really enjoy them, I suspect they'd love an Atlantic League, although I'm not sure their wives would! 

On 25/04/2021 at 11:39, Rousseau said:

Thanks for this.

 

You're saying that to be successful, a team needs to be 'badly run', or at least push the boat out, and that's not something you want to see for Rangers. You want to be entertained, which is what we're getting now. 

 

It seems like I'm being accused of being unimpressed by our success this season? That is not the case. If we have this level of success every few years or so, I'll be more than happy. I've been delighted by our performance this season.

 

Fair enough, we've been burned quite badly for speculating, pushing the boat out, in the past. That's certainly not something I want to see repeated. However, there are many examples of teams being well-run, living within their means, and achieving success. German sides are the archetype, but even sides like Southampton in the recent past (they've struggled recently because their recruitment has been poor and injuries), or Ajax. Good sides, living within their means. That's all I want. But, Southampton, arguably, have a better quality of squad than us--and Ajax and German sides certainly do. That frustrates me.  

 

Entertainment can be separated from the level at which we play--one can be entertained in League 2 and CL finals (in theory...). So, surely it doesn't matter if we play in Scotland or in the PL or in an Atlantic League? 

 

To see a better level of quality, in the playing squad and its performance, you'd need to be in a bigger pond. 

 

I too want to be entertained by Rangers, but I also want to see better quality players, see more success in the bigger competitions. At the moment we hit a wall. We could appoint the next big managerial genius tomorrow, but we'd still hit a wall with the level of player we can afford. So, if there is a chance of us moving to a bigger pond, to then attract and afford that better calibre of player, then I'm in favour of it. I don't think I'll ever change in that regard. 

 

Like I said elsewhere, if there is a sudden change, whereby Scottish football improves and becomes that bigger pond, then that's the same for me; I'd be delighted. 

Southampton made a loss of £76 million last year and a loss of £41 million in 2019, apparently they have a wages to turnover ratio of 90%. They finished 11th last season. Even Ajax make an operating loss most seasons (nothing like Southampton's to be fair), they rely on selling players to make up the shortfall. I can't think of any side in the UK that has had tangible on-field success while while being run like a normal business. Much as it pains me to say it the closest in recent years was Celtic, but they had the league and access to Europe all to themselves. As soon as we put a challenge in their model fell apart. 

I'm not accusing you of being unimpressed by this season, I don't think that. I do think your desire to join another league because there's more money available in it is mis-guided. As I said in my original post I'm not closed to against another league, but it has to be for the right reasons. For me access to more money isn't one of those reasons.

For what it's worth I think your view is probably the majority one among our support.

7 hours ago, Rousseau said:

I've always been in favour of us moving.

 

Last season Norwich City, finishing bottom of the league--by some distance--had revenues of £119.3 million. 

 

Rangers, £59 million (?).

Money shouldn't be the motivating factor for moving, we're a football club not a merchant bank. Real Madrid's revenue this season is estimated at over 600 million Euros yet the club's a financial basket case, football should never be measured by money. Norwich might well have revenues double ours, but it didn't stop them being relegated. 

Is "reputed to be extremely wealthy" meant to make us feel better or worse do you think? Reputed to support Rangers? Reputed to be interested in football? Reputed to have a love of Scotland? Nah, just extremely wealthy. No wonder the game is in the state it is. 

Ironically the Czech Republic national side are basing themselves in Edinburgh for the tournament so I wonder if Kudela would have travelled anyway. He's a first choice centre half for them currently so he'll be missed. He's had a strange career, he was in his 30s before making his international debut, his move to Slavia and their manager seem to have transformed him from a journeyman into a full internationalist. Shame he couldn't manage to be a normal human being at the same time. 

There seems to be a determination to keep this incident in the public eye and a few minutes on the national News At Ten certainly helped that. I wonder what the next step is if UEFA's reaction isn't to the club's liking. 

Pretty sure this is something that happens after every match as one of the protocols for allowing games to be played. I can't see any way there will be fans back this season and I think we're still months away from a full Ibrox. The issue isn't the stadium itself it's the movement of 50,000 people across the country, sharing cars, trains, buses and of course the subway. Until we're back to level 0 right across the country I think large crowds will remain restricted. 

In my mind Cove Rangers are a Highland League side but I see in fact they're second in League 1 with a very decent chance of promotion to the Championship next season. In reality there won't be much between them and the sides at the bottom of the SPFL in terms of player ability, we'll need to ensure against complacency. 

12 hours ago, the gunslinger said:

if it was a sliding scale surely the second offense would be worse than first. 

 

It's just making it up as they go along 

Aye, good point! 

I assume there is an appeal process with this? Six games feels excessive, even if two are suspended. I assumed a 3 match ban in keeping with Bolingoli at Celtic. Maybe as it's the club's second public breach there's some kind of sliding scale. Of course a fair percentage of our support wanted them thrown out of the club when it happened so maybe some don't feel it's harsh enough. 

Potentially damaging bans for the club with 2 Scottish Cup rounds falling during it. If we beat Cove Rangers we could get a much stiffer match in the next round and really miss a natural right back and cover at left back. That said perhaps Tav will be back by then. 

You've hidden depths Gonzo, I didn't think the North Macedonia v Liechtenstein match would be of much interest to you. ?

13 hours ago, Bill said:

You bring back distant memories of being captivated by world cup finals, the exotic mystery of fabled countries like Uruguay, Brazil and Argentina. Players you'd never heard of became heroes overnight. It was like opening a window on the world but without the bad taste of politics, poverty, etc.  I remember falling in love with the game in 1970, it was like being introduced to champagne. Where did all that go eh? Now these tournaments are like watching the Champions League - same players, same football, different shirts. I haven't watched a CL game in years and the magic of international football died in the money pit long ago. 

 

 

Other than the semis and finals I've not watched much Champion's League either, it's lost it's sheen in recent years. I do hope to watch some next season though.

Nostalgia is a big part of football. Harking back to a seemingly happier, easier time when youth and ignorance combined with naivety to make the world seem a simpler, happier place, particularly at 4 or 5 decades distance. Now, jaded, cynical and harder to surprise and excite (at least I am) modern tournaments feel like corporate events with a uniformity and shallowness, controlled by PR companies and bland media executives. 

Yet they still throw up surprises in ways the club football is now geared to avoid. Iceland and Wales reaching the Euro 2016 semi-finals is a magical story and nothing similar could happen in European club football, likewise Croatia and Belgium reaching the semis of the 2018 World Cup should give all similar sized nations hope. None of those 4 associations are high up for sponsors or TV deals, the money pit hasn't been able to consume everything, not yet anyway. 

I also think today there's a generation of school age supporters who'll recall wistfully back to the current day, when you could send a direct message on social media to a favourite player or something else that seems normal today. National sides have struggled to dominate football in recent times. The first 7 World Cups were shared by 4 nations, but in the 21st century no country has won it twice. I still think international football is where legendary status is achieved, by even the greatest players. 

Anyway, tonight we have the magic of a country that didn't exist 70 years ago taking on a country that doesn't exist as a country today. Riveting...