bmck 117 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 zappa, a millionaire wont overcome these problems either unless he is going to spend his own fortune on buying players. your post outlines the reality of the situation and the future, irrespective of the new owner. the question is whether we go into this new era of relative poverty with fan ownership or single ownership. personally i think this might be a blessing in disguise - once all the delusions are purged, and the complacency kicked away by financial hardship, people might start enjoying football for what it is. tv money has taken away something of the essence of what it means to follow a football team. i know people who have given up watching the old firm to follow their local pub team or amateur team as its more like what football should be all about. thats not for me, but while the big leagues will have the big paradise of world class footballers, maybe this bleak future will turn out to be a mini paradise of an unbloated appreciation of the game - players that are nearer fans etc. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmck 117 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) A lot of the current Rangers support have their football roots in the Murray NIAR era. The next generation will be completely different and will have to find reasons other than success to bond themselves to the club. aye, thats more like what i was trying to get at in the last post. this seems like a good thing to me. we need to start, as a support, building up a contempt for the super rich leagues. once we stop wanting to be them, things will get better. this could happen across the board in the future and put us ahead of the game Edited November 25, 2009 by bmck 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 0 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 A lot of the current Rangers support have their football roots in the Murray NIAR era. The next generation will be completely different and will have to find reasons other than success to bond themselves to the club. aye, thats more like what i was trying to get at in the last post. this seems like a good thing to me. we need to start, as a support, building up a contempt for the super rich leagues. once we stop wanting to be them, things will get better. this could happen across the board in the future and put us ahead of the game I'm absolutely fine with that, but what I'm not fine with is Rangers FC being put in an even more dangerous financial position than it is at the moment. I know our league can't be compared to any of the top 5 in Europe, that's a no-brainer, but I need to go back to the Bundesliga to clarify something. No matter what was said about Hamburg at this conference (I still don't know what the German speaker actually said), majority fan ownership of Bundesliga clubs has not taken them into an era of financial stability by any means & that's a league with absolutely massive income from broadcasting etc. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the Bundesliga like pete could be more specific about this, but as far as I know quite a few of the clubs have had very very serious financial troubles in recent years and the problems are ongoing with at least one big club, Schalke, currently in big trouble. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 0 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Just remembered about one of the big German clubs that almost went to the wall a few seasons back & verified a couple of details - Borussia Dortmund, one of the biggest clubs in the Bundesliga, with the biggest football stadium in Germany & one of the highest average attendances in Europe (almost 80,000), yet they were forced to sell their stadium about 6 years ago & lease it back. A couple of years after that shocker, they were in serious trouble again, having to sell star players & cut player wages. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Just remembered about one of the big German clubs that almost went to the wall a few seasons back & verified a couple of details - Borussia Dortmund, one of the biggest clubs in the Bundesliga, with the biggest football stadium in Germany & one of the highest average attendances in Europe (almost 80,000), yet they were forced to sell their stadium about 6 years ago & lease it back. A couple of years after that shocker, they were in serious trouble again, having to sell star players & cut player wages. Unfortunately i am not as far up on German football as you seem to think. I do work with Germans though one who is Dortmund crazy so i can ask him how Dortmund works. I went to see them play Mainz on Saturday and the football was atrocious. Huge Stadium but a concrete block, Ibrox is 1000 times nicer. I am going to Dortmund-HSV on 23rd of January. I will be secretly supporting HSV while travelling on a Dortmund supporters bus. I must admit the guys on the supporters bus are fantastic and on the way back home have to listen to chants of FC Twente from the Dutch guy's and there's only one Glasgow Rangers from moi. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 0 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Unfortunately i am not as far up on German football as you seem to think. I do work with Germans though one who is Dortmund crazy so i can ask him how Dortmund works. Would be interesting if you could get some details mate. All I know is that they went public about 8 or 9 years ago, so their shares are likely majority owned by fans/members, but I don't know any specifics other than them being forced to sell their stadium within 3 years of going public & having further serious problems a couple of years after that. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Would be interesting if you could get some details mate. All I know is that they went public about 8 or 9 years ago, so their shares are likely majority owned by fans/members, but I don't know any specifics other than them being forced to sell their stadium within 3 years of going public & having further serious problems a couple of years after that. I seem to remember him saying that no one could own more than 50% of Dortmund. That is off the top of my head though so i don't know exactly. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 "Besides financial stability we have also achieved footballing stability again" [24.11.] Hans-Joachim Watzke gave a passionate speech at the shareholders meeting of the Borussia Dortmund GmbH & Co. KGaA at the Westfalenhalle on Tuesday, demanding a "user pays equity" and once again a change in the distribution of broadcasting rights. But the chairman of the board, who is in his fifth year in office, also acknowledged: "Besides financial stability we have also achieved footballing stability again." Watzke, whose speech was often interrupted by applause of the audience in a well-filled hall, said: "Last season we rediscovered things which were long lost: joy and passion. We played a great season after finishing 13th the year before. We went from the second worst defence to the second best in the league, had the third-best goal-difference, and for the first time a fantastic 59 points weren�´t enough to qualify for Europe." And so Borussia Dortmund just missed out on turning footballing success into "a financial success." It was quite the contrary as the "performance bonuses" in the strict performance-oriented contracts reached an unforeseeable magnitude, and there weren�´t any (international) bonuses from the sponsors to balance these costs. "In football," so Watzke, "there are just no exclusive truths." Which also applies to the struggling start to the Bundesliga season, for which the club�´s injury woes could partly be blamed for. "But in the meantime," bild The player council (here Nuri Sahin, left) and coach J�¼rgen Klopp attended the meeting. the BVB boss told the shareholders, "we have returned to stability." In the remaining games of the year the team now has to "build a foundation from which to start a successful second half of the season." Hans-Joachim Watzke spoke in detail about the performance of the BVB share. "Why is this positive development not making a noticeable impact?", he asked rhetorically. The answer lies, so Watzke, in the shareholder structure. Since June 2007 the free float increased from 40 to 66 per cent, meaning, "More than 16 million shares have been released in the last two years. And this caused the share price to drop." But he predicted: "We believe in a recovery of the share when this brutal sales pressure [of the major shareholders] is over." Hans-Joachim Watzke (right) and Thomas Tress (left). Or when there will be a redistribution of the broadcasting rights. Watzke complained that "the fans of the big clubs buy pay TV subscriptions to watch the games and the others clubs, who travel around with a few hundred fans, participate from it." And that�´s why the BVB chairman demanded "more �´user pays�´ equity from television." Watke also talked about the overall economic situation in the Ruhr area. "We don�´t live in the exurbs of the republic. And we also pay a not so moderate rent for the use of a municipal stadium." Borussia Dortmund have to pay 13 million euro per year for the Signal Iduna Park. "But we do not to complain and will not complain. We have millions of fans and a young, viable team. Borussia Dortmund are a shining brand." Besides the already known facts from the past financial year, executive director Thomas Tress also presented bills of modified annual reports from the years 2006 to 2008. The reason was an objection by the Financial Reporting Enforcement Panel (Deutsche Pr�¼fstelle f�¼r Rechnungslegung). bild Gerd Pieper, chairman of the supervisory board, guided the audience through the meeting. "There were no complaints regarding the stadium and the value of the players, "said Tress. It was rather about the equipment contract with Nike from 2003 (duration from 2004 to 2009) in which deal and compensation fees amounting to around 28 million euro were included entirely by the then management in the annual report for the financial year of 2002/2003. "In close consultation with the advisory board and the supervisory board, we decided to modify the annual reports accordingly," said Tress. The shareholders were overall very satisfied with the work of the management. Lawyer Stefan ten Doornkaat from the Association for the Protection of Shareholders (Schutzgemeinschaft der Kapitalanleger) stated: "Herr Watzke, you said that Borussia Dortmund would suffer scratches and bumps from the financial crisis. But based on the figures presented, there are really only a few minor dents." orussia Dortmund are well-prepared for the next 100 years [22.11.] It was a harmonious event for the 699 of the club�´s 35.482 members who attended the annual meeting at the Westfalenhalle on Sunday. BV Borussia 09 e.V. Dortmund looked back at a successful financial year 2008/2009, on and off the pitch. The registered association earned a profit of almost 800.000 euro and was able to reduce the debt burden from once 7.4 to 3.9 million euro. Hans-Joachim Watzke speaking at the annual meeting. As principal shareholders the results of the partnership limited by shares were of course of great interest. Hans-Joachim Watzke, chairman of the management board, mentioned already known facts: revenue increased from 113 to 115 million euro. He announced: "We will do everything we can to be in the black." This also depends of course on the success of the team. "On the last matchday a 91st minute-goal robbed us of a deserved success," remembered Watzke and showed Hamburg�´s winning goal in Frankfurt on the screen again. "It looks like the referee mistook Hamburg�´s forwards with Frankfurt�´s defenders - five players were offside. bild Tinga, Dede and Nelson Valdez If it had gone according to the rules, we would have played in the Europa League." But he was still satisfied with the results achieved. "Last season gave us a lot of pleasure. We went from the worst defence to the second best in the league. We were also the best club in North Rhine-Westphalia. It was a great achievement by the team to win 59 points." Watzke also pleaded for patience ("You also have to forgive the young team setbacks"), but, following the conclusion of the World Cup qualifying campaign, also reminded the players of the duties: "Their focus in the next months should be on Borussia Dortmund and due to the injury situation they should also move closer together." Dr Reinhold Lunow Treasurer Dr Reinhold Lunow was pleased about a 10 per cent increase of members and about a profit of 796.000 euro of an overall contribution of 3.2 million euro for the past financial year, which also saw the opening of the Borusseum, "the realisation of a longstanding dream." "Borussia Dortmund are well prepared for the next 100 years," said club president Dr Reinhard Rauball. He looked back at the difficult fiscal situation of the club�´s professional handball and table tennis teams, whose future existence was only secured through a last-minute rescue by external sponsors for the next three years. bild BVB president Dr Reinhard Rauball He also spoke in favour of maintaining the "50+1 rule" ("We pass on non-football interested investors and keep the ticket prices as low as possible"), remembered the highlights of the centenary year and, under the applause of the members, said: "I was very pleased to see so many children at these events. You have to watch that they don�´t get on the wrong path at this age..." The board was discharged unanimously. Dr Michele Puller (CEO of MiroRadici AG), Martin Eul (CEO of Dortmunder Volksbank eG), Lord Mayor Ullrich Sierau and Dr Winfried Materna were voted into the club�´s council of economic advisors, which also includes Dr Klaus Engel, Friedrich Merz, Dr Gerhard Papke and Reinhold Schulte. Alfred "Aki" Schmidt was confirmed as auditor, and Hartwig Tiemann was elected as successor for the outgoing Reinhold Beck . It looks like they have shareholders and a club membership. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Shalke.... Magath relaxed about financial situation 28.08.2009 Director of sport Felix Magath shrugged off media reports on the club's financial situation on Thursday, saying: "In my view the figures are nothing new. I'm surprised it's supposed to be such a big issue. The club gave me a detailed briefing on the financial situation before I agreed to come here. Everyone knows we don't have that much money, which is why we have to be more careful when making investments." Magath consciously declined to go into detail at the press conference ahead of the home clash with SC Freiburg. "Contrary to common opinion I'm not responsible for everything that happens at FC Schalke 04. I don't consider myself to be a business expert. It�s not my field", he explained. Magath said he could not understand the parallels being drawn by the media to the financial position Borussia Dortmund found themselves in a few years ago. "It's a completely unsound comparison. Dortmund were already on the stock exchange and had thus used up all their options. Even though we don't have money to burn at the moment, we do have a number of assets on our side, such as the stadium and the marketing rights. So I'm not overly worried about the situation. The home game against SC Freiburg is giving me more grey hair than anything else." I don't want to fill this thread with German stories as the fact is, no two problems are alike. I posted this because of one statement. Even though we don't have money to burn at the moment, we do have a number of assets on our side, such as the stadium Please Bears when we are asked to respond to the bugle let's do everything to hold our asset of Ibrox park. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 0 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 I seem to remember him saying that no one could own more than 50% of Dortmund. That is off the top of my head though so i don't know exactly. Their rule in the Bundesliga is that 51% must be owned by the fans/members of each club so that no individual can obtain majority shareholding & control of a club. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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