Ser Barristan Selmy 222 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 It's moving away from the point a bit, but I don't believe that the fact that the share capital was financed by a loan had any impact on us subsequently. Things would have played out exactly the same as they did if that £50m came out of Murray's back pocket. The bank wouldn't have been given control of the club. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedell 5,329 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 The bank wouldn't have been given control of the club. Yes they would. The bank's involvement with the club was due to the club's debt and not the specific loan that was used to finance the rights issue. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan Selmy 222 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Yes they would. The bank's involvement with the club was due to the club's debt and not the specific loan that was used to finance the rights issue. If we borrowed less from the bank and had significantly less debt, they wouldn't have had to take control. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedell 5,329 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 If we borrowed less from the bank and had significantly less debt, they wouldn't have had to take control. Which has nothing to do with the financing of the cash of the rights issue? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan Selmy 222 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Which has nothing to do with the financing of the cash of the rights issue? The cash borrowed from the bank did not become debt? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
der Berliner 3,245 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Must you be so hypocritical all of the time ? I have explained my point of view a few times You drum the same old drum time and again though. Doesn't make any of your arguments or point of view any more credible. Plenty knew all about Murray, he was widely hated on Followfollow. I was just a kid and could see what a disaster he was. It was pretty obvious when he took us to unsustainable debt that he was grossly incompetent at running a football club. What was the club's debt when he was still with us? What was the club's debts when he left the leadership in the hands of others? Was the club's debts unsustainable for the club of our size? At the time he had the wealth and could in dire need dip into his pockets, not exactly like Abramovich, but anyway. He bought success and had it not been for Whyte, we would eventually, after a few barren years, ended up in reasonable health. King, Kennedy and McColl were not out of this universe at the time either. You may argue that the EBT stuff was his grand failure, but how would he (or thousands of other company bosses) would have known what HMRC was up to or would behave with regards to us. That said, what could the fanbase have done about it? Would the fanbase have done anything about it, as the club produced the goods demanded on the field of play? Answers on a postcard or otherwise. And just don't tell me that those hundreds of thousands who had been through the turnstiles during Murrays reign were just gullible idiots. As for Whyte, there was never any reason to trust him as that should be earned. Our board, Murray apart, didn't want to sell to him. They told us exactly what was going to happen. There was certainly further warning signs in the summer he took over, when we failed to sign countless targets in an embarrassing fashion. Then some of the details started to come out and it was clear what he was up to. Though some still defended his corner bizarrely. My understanding is you were one such person, something that happens repeatedly. Most of us knew next to nothing about what Whyte was up to. We ran away with the league till November when things began to unravel. Half-substantiated inuendo did not swing me against Whyte, nor did it swing thousands of others. If you expect that I whip myself as repeatedly as you bring this up, think again. Likewise, the question remains what could the fans (me and you included) had done to change anything? As long as the team was winning, you would have had to pay anyone for any protests and staying away. That's the normal football supporter for you. As for Green, Ashley etc? Do I even need to go there? We were told from day 1 about them, they had a track record for all to see. Yep. What could we have done? It took the masses till earlier last year to act, when the IPO/ST theft came up and King finally took to the stage. When all people saw with their own eyes what had been done by Green and Co.. Still, all these thousands staying away neither were or are brainwashed idiots. Like most, they require hard facts and not papertalk and fanboard rumour to react, which they eventually did. There has certainly been issues there that need look at but our main problems have all been our own doing. An apathetic, devisive fan base has been a far bigger problem, what has happened to us just wouldn't be tolerated at many other clubs. I'm sure you have plenty of examples. I for one would not ridicule our fans like that. What was missing is a clear leadership or guidance and King provided it last April. The media also exposed Ticketus, Whyte, Green etc. While they were exposing them, you were ranting and raving, getting it all wrong. Who needs friends? Once more, you look at the way from just one angle. Shall I hail Scrote for exposing the odd bit of info while telling the world in the same article that the "liquidated club" was "demoted to the 4th tier" and "started anew", asking the SPFL chief questions about our state of existence to this day? If he or other investigative "journalists" do that, I'll "rant" on. For they are telling lies. Does that mean that I ignore the details the uncover every know and then? Nope. Why should I. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedell 5,329 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 The cash borrowed from the bank did not become debt? Reread post 43. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan Selmy 222 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Reread post 43. Yes but surely all debt is accumulative. The bank took control because they had seen enough of our boom and bust approach. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan Selmy 222 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I have explained my point of view a few times You drum the same old drum time and again though. Doesn't make any of your arguments or point of view any more credible. You really are not one to talk about lack of objectivity or accusing anyone of repeating themselves. I think time has shown that my views on our club, both on the field and off it, were correct. Up until recently you would argue against logic on a routine basis, even recently you were trying to justify our dismal cup defeats as 'freak games'. You have spent the last couple of years backing the wrong horse (after horse) and arguing against all logic so perhaps it might be an idea for you to show some decorum to those who were right. What was the club's debt when he was still with us? What was the club's debts when he left the leadership in the hands of others? Was the club's debts unsustainable for the club of our size? At the time he had the wealth and could in dire need dip into his pockets, not exactly like Abramovich, but anyway. He bought success and had it not been for Whyte, we would eventually, after a few barren years, ended up in reasonable health. King, Kennedy and McColl were not out of this universe at the time either. You may argue that the EBT stuff was his grand failure, but how would he (or thousands of other company bosses) would have known what HMRC was up to or would behave with regards to us. The pros and cons of David Murray shouldn't be up for debate because it's beyond all reasonable doubt that the man was a hugely destructive force that we will struggle to ever recover from. Murray's gross mismanagement of our finances was sufficient for the bank to say enough was enough and take control of the club. Our debt when he sold is somewhat irrelevant, given he wasn't running the club. That said, what could the fanbase have done about it? Would the fanbase have done anything about it, as the club produced the goods demanded on the field of play? Answers on a postcard or otherwise. And just don't tell me that those hundreds of thousands who had been through the turnstiles during Murrays reign were just gullible idiots. Producing the goods demanded on the field of play is really pushing things. Since 03/04 onwards by and large the football we have played has been dismal and an awful lot of terrible players have come and gone. I think when we sold Ferguson after 02/03 and replaced him with Emerson that really typified the David Murray era. Selling our best player, replacing him with someone who was finished for free. A player who we clearly had not watched and obviously bought based on his previous performance many years ago in England. Our scouting network really coming up trumps. A well developed club would have a young player ready to take the reigns but never us. Most of us knew next to nothing about what Whyte was up to. We ran away with the league till November when things began to unravel. Half-substantiated inuendo did not swing me against Whyte, nor did it swing thousands of others. If you expect that I whip myself as repeatedly as you bring this up, think again. Likewise, the question remains what could the fans (me and you included) had done to change anything? As long as the team was winning, you would have had to pay anyone for any protests and staying away. That's the normal football supporter for you. Long after everything had unraveled many, including you (going by what FS has said) were still backing him. As I already said, our board had spoken out about him before he even bought the club. Alistair Johnston knew full well he didn't have the required finance: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/apr/19/rangers-chairman-doubts-craig-whyte http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/8534294/Alastair-Johnston-calls-on-Rangers-fans-to-police-Craig-Whyte-after-day-of-high-boardroom-drama.html Yep. What could we have done? It took the masses till earlier last year to act, when the IPO/ST theft came up and King finally took to the stage. When all people saw with their own eyes what had been done by Green and Co.. Still, all these thousands staying away neither were or are brainwashed idiots. Like most, they require hard facts and not papertalk and fanboard rumour to react, which they eventually did. Not blindly backing them would have been a start. Green repeated what he did at Sheffield United and very early on was clearly speaking out of his arse. Ashley's MO couldn't be more evident and he has followed it to a tee. I'm sure you have plenty of examples. I for one would not ridicule our fans like that. What was missing is a clear leadership or guidance and King provided it last April. And yet there's still a chunk who would rather have the rats than King, including BH from here. As for examples, you only need to look at the clubs across the continent and all the trouble that can quickly escalate even just after minor issues. Once more, you look at the way from just one angle. Shall I hail Scrote for exposing the odd bit of info while telling the world in the same article that the "liquidated club" was "demoted to the 4th tier" and "started anew", asking the SPFL chief questions about our state of existence to this day? If he or other investigative "journalists" do that, I'll "rant" on. For they are telling lies. Does that mean that I ignore the details the uncover every know and then? Nope. Why should I. You continue to vent your hate in all the wrong places . 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
der Berliner 3,245 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) You really are not one to talk about lack of objectivity or accusing anyone of repeating themselves. I think time has shown that my views on our club, both on the field and off it, were correct. Up until recently you would argue against logic on a routine basis, even recently you were trying to justify our dismal cup defeats as 'freak games'. You have spent the last couple of years backing the wrong horse (after horse) and arguing against all logic so perhaps it might be an idea for you to show some decorum to those who were right. You pick your points to suit your case and getting personal. No "dialogue" worth spending any life energy on. The pros and cons of David Murray shouldn't be up for debate because it's beyond all reasonable doubt that the man was a hugely destructive force that we will struggle to ever recover from. Murray's gross mismanagement of our finances was sufficient for the bank to say enough was enough and take control of the club. Our debt when he sold is somewhat irrelevant, given he wasn't running the club. Evasive stuff and personal opinion. Producing the goods demanded on the field of play is really pushing things. Since 03/04 onwards by and large the football we have played has been dismal and an awful lot of terrible players have come and gone. I think when we sold Ferguson after 02/03 and replaced him with Emerson that really typified the David Murray era. Selling our best player, replacing him with someone who was finished for free. A player who we clearly had not watched and obviously bought based on his previous performance many years ago in England. Our scouting network really coming up trumps. A well developed club would have a young player ready to take the reigns but never us. Picking on specific points again and being evasive once more. Help yourself to our trophy haul in that time, add the good and great players signed, throw in a European Cup Final and all that, balance it all (perhaps looking at other clubs of our size) and return to the table. Long after everything had unraveled many, including you (going by what FS has said) were still backing him. As I already said, our board had spoken out about him before he even bought the club. Alistair Johnston knew full well he didn't have the required finance:http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/apr/19/rangers-chairman-doubts-craig-whyte http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/8534294/Alastair-Johnston-calls-on-Rangers-fans-to-police-Craig-Whyte-after-day-of-high-boardroom-drama.html I guess I know myself what I did back then and why. You can jump on FS's bandwaggon if you like, but much of what he said was still unsubstantiated from your everyday's supporters position or knowledge. You will probably come up with this shortcoming of mine till kingdom comes, most of us, me included have moved on. We all make mistakes and as I said, I'll not publicly castigate myself to give certain people some satisfaction. Not least those who have not a good word to say about anything Rangers. Not blindly backing them would have been a start. Green repeated what he did at Sheffield United and very early on was clearly speaking out of his arse. Ashley's MO couldn't be more evident and he has followed it to a tee. Maybe you start stopping throwing this rubbish about. No-one was following Green and Co. "blindly". Most went with the information available, as some do now. You may want to belittle other people for not following your point of view, I for one do not regard that as stance a Bear should take. For it shows a certain lack of respect and dignity. Carrying this about like a standard and tell the world how right you were does not make any of your "arguments" any more relevant or true. And yet there's still a chunk who would rather have the rats than King, including BH from here. As for examples, you only need to look at the clubs across the continent and all the trouble that can quickly escalate even just after minor issues. Give me names, rather than vague comments. I've been about for a while and can't think of any great or large scale supporters protests that you may have in mind. As for BH and Co., they will sure have reservations about King and Co., whether they will back the current incompetence though remains very much to be seen. Yet, that's democracy for you. You can't just have it your way ... You continue to vent your hate in all the wrong places . See, that in turn means that you would allow Scrote and Co. spill their lies while we should - on face value - just concern ourselves with us. Well, you can obviously spent all your "hate" on people and in places you see fit. Just don't tell those who defend the club where to spend their energy and "hate". Rangers do not exist in their own, exclusive universe. That way of thinking is reserved for one club and its support. They may keep it. And this, BTW, is not the first time I told you to keep clear from educating people how they shall spend their time supporting Rangers. For it is simply not in your competence and jurisdiction, not least since you're probably the first and only person I have met in all those years on various boards who has not had a good or positive thing to say about our club. Edited February 19, 2015 by der Berliner 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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