Excellent Article

[calscot 0]

Comparisons between the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church are valid; the Orange Order, however, are an extreme and anti-catholic organisation. It IS different, completely different.

 

Can you explain how? Their is a lot of common knowledge of history where Catholic have tortured, burned, and otherwise killed people who disagreed with them including wiping out a whole civilisation in Mexico and others just for believing the Earth went round the sun.

 

Most religions have members perpertrate crimes but it seems to me that when it comes to crimes against humanity the Catholic church are the equivalent of Maradonna, but I have no common knowledge that makes the OO look more than the equivalent of Darren Jackson.

 

I'm not going to hate the Catholic church (CC) today for their past crimes so why should I hate the OO?

 

Seems to me if you hate the OO for any crimes, you should hate the CC even more especially if you are Pagan, Jewish, Muslim, Protestant, Female, Homosexual, have a knowledge of science or medicine or a belief in equality and democracy. The CC have attacked all of these.

 

What makes you think the CC is better than the OO? Really? To me it's like comparing a mass murderer to a petty thief. The KKK have FAR more in common with the CC as when you consider the witch hunts and burnings.

 

I'm not going to hate the CC for the horrific stuff they've done nor hate every Muslim for the current terrorists so what could the OO have possibly done to deserve your's and other's hate?

 

Some C's boil it down to the fact they believe the OO hates C's. However, can't the OO use the same logic? The CC hate the OO, so that means the OO can hate the CC...

 

I have no fondness for the OO or any other religious group but I do not condone bigotry or hypocrisy.

 

Being irrationally anti-OO is pretty much a good example of the definition of sectarianism.

[calscot 0]

If your friend is 'a catholic atheist' then I (through my upbringing) am a 'protestant atheist'. In reality both of us are simply atheists. I should know.

 

No, despite being non-religious and proclaiming to be an aetheist, he still sees himself as a Catholic and still has that "us and them" attitude. There is not the same innate "protestantness" to abandon for a Protestant who turns aetheist.

 

More importantly, I have no idea what an anecdotal version of a single Celtic fan's views brings to the debate. It is rather like your fellow fans trying to damn my club for a single cretin running onto the pitch a couple of weeks ago while defending literally tens of thousands of your fans singing rampant and blatant bigotry for decades.

 

The point was to show that someone I get on really well with, who is a nice guy and very intelligent, turns into the same party line rhetoric spouting person who is unable to even listen to a point which disagrees with his dogma, that you find from pretty much most Celtic fans I read on the net. When it comes to the CC he is not able to think objectively or even just think for himself even though he can for everything else.

 

That is a big difference between Celtic and Rangers fans. Perhaps it's because most Rangers haven't had the same religious schooling - especially from a religion that has in its creed discouragement for thinking for yourself ie the CC.

 

I'm not an advocate of protestantism, but one of it's greatest differences to that of the CC is that it demands people think for themselves.

 

Which is also probably its biggest downfall - ie people think for themselves and no longer need the religion.

[calscot 0]

 

I am no lover of either the Catholic Church or the Church of Scotland. Force me to choose and I'd pick the latter. That does not mean I dislike anybody who follows either. I don't accept your comparison between the Catholic Church and the Orange Order or Klu Klux Klan, both of whom hold a fundamental dislike of other creeds as central to their beliefs. The Catholic Church does not.

 

You can't know much about the CC. In its creed has been disliking of Pagans, Jews, Muslims, Protestanst, Women, Scentists, Homosexuals and pretty much anyone who disagrees with them. They cry "Heathen" or "Heritic" and then burn you at the stake.

 

The witch hunts have more in common with the KKK than anything the OO have done - ie hunting people and then burning, drowning or hanging them. Oh yeah, and torturing a confession out of them first.

[calscot 0]

Anyone with an IQ over about 70 can see the obvious statistical flaws in your arguement about signing policy. For starters, try turning numbers into percentages and you'll find 0% looks pretty poor compared to any other number. I could go on but I suspect even you recognise how feeble your case is here.

 

My case is so feeble that you can't be bothered countering it? Come on! lol!

 

Having 0 instead of 2 out of 11 is far easier than increasing 2 to 8 out of 11. Damning the number 0 is just a cop out.

 

Is a drop of 20% worse than an incease of 400%?

 

Discrimination is discrimination and doesn't have to exclusion. Are you saying Rangers would have been fine if they had the odd token Catholic in the squad?

 

You can avoid 18% of the population and still be successful, it's far more difficult to be successful by only choosing from 18%. And the only reason that Celtic could be as successful as they were is that they could automatically choose the best of the 18% whereas Rangers had to compete with many other clubs for the best of the 82% balance.

 

Anyway you are falling into the trap of thinking that there is such a thing as "possitive" discrimination. Every positive discrimination for one group is negative for another.

 

And talking of exclusivity, where are all the Celtic Jewish players? Or members of the board?

 

Rangers have had both.

[calscot 0]

You rather spoil your only semi-valid point by ridiculous exagerration. Maurice Johnstone was signed (to the disgust of many Rangers supporters) in 1989 which is 18 years ago, barely more than half of your claim of 30 years. Rather damaging for your credibility and indeed that of your club.

 

John Spencer was signed in 1984 - how come you don't mention him? You rather spoil your own point there. The 30 years was a typo but 23 years is probably the accurate number.

 

Maurice Johnstone was a hero at Rangers and universally reviled by Celtic fans who gave him death threats which meant he had to have a bodyguard assigned to him. Many Catholic Rangers players have been abused by Celtic fans as well as our first Catholic manager. Why is that?

 

What exactly is contetious about the word 'fen1an'?

 

The interpretation of the word is ambiguous. To me it means a meember of a group of Irish people who rebelled against their government to try to gain independence. Some were Catholic, some were Protestant and some were neither. It's now sometimes used to describe supporters of the Unification of Ireland by force including suport of the IRA, and is also used to describe those that are vehemently anti-Unionist.

 

Some other people interprate it as meaning, "Catholic".

 

What exactly is political about the word 'fen1an'?

 

It stems from the very complex political situation in Ireland - see above. Maybe you need to read more about them.

 

We move on to catholics choosing their football team. Why would anybody in their right mind choose a football team whose fans sing about killing members of their religion and of wishing to have intercourse with their leader?

 

Which came first? And I don't recall any song which contains words which mean, "kill Catholics".

 

Are you saying Catholics inate hatred of homosexuals prevented them from supporting Rangers?

 

F... the Pope could feasably be more likely to mean, "We don't care for the Pope". Like someone could say, "F... the rules, I'm doing it anyway." Celtic fans have used FTQ as well so do you have to hate the Royal family support them?

[Frankie 8,150]

Great stuff cal...

 

This is the kind of open, reasoned debate which the likes of Graham Spiers is extremely frightened of.

 

Like I say, no-one can claim the moral high-ground when it comes to this subject.

 

To suggest one is worse than the other is completely false.

[calscot 0]

'How could they reject catholics' - you're having a laugh, surely?

 

You choose or reject a team to support - it does not choose or reject you. Don't you understand that?

 

In your final paragraph you totally miss the point. Perhaps (and only perhaps) Rangers fans do acknowledge their problems more, but like the entire Scottish establishment you incorrectly assume that one side has as much to acknowledge as the other.

 

Celtic acknowledge 0%, is that not far, far worse according to you? Especially as Rangers seem to be acknowledging 100%.

 

The biggest trouble here is that Celtic fans think everything they do is justified and fine and dandy, while they will twist just about anything that Rangers fans do.

 

Examples are accusations of sectarianism for: The Union Flag, the bouncy, Rule Britannia, GSTQ, the Dambuster Theme, the Great Escape Theme, the tartan pattern of the pitch, the tangerine strip, the Sash, Derry's Walls, the Red Hand of Ulster Flag.

 

Add to that much other twisting of facts, like Mo Johnson being the first Catholic, Rangers founding as an anti-Catholic club and even current things like trying to maliciously convince people that the red hand salute is a Nazi-salute when it's obvious that any self-respecting Nazi would be proud to tell everyone he was doing a Nazi salute. They are even trying to maliciously convince people that Rangers are being done for financial fraud.

 

And again, after all that, paint themselves whiter than white and also as perpetual victims - cue conspiracy theories.

 

You are not going to stop Rangers bigoted minority with this kind of treatment are you?

 

The trouble with Celtic is that while they also have a bigoted minority, it is 100% condoned by the rest. That's a huge problem. Rangers are making inroads because the majority are condemning the minority. The majority of Rangers fans dislike all bigotry. Celtic fans condone some bigotry, condemn other bigotry and then twist things to make up some bigotry to be offended by for good measure.

 

 

Anyway, the only way to massively reduce it at football matches is for both sides to recognise their wrong-doings and do something about it and for the authorities to be even handed.

 

Why are so many Celtic fans against even-handedness anyway - unless they are in the wrong?

[Yieldshields loyal 0]

 

The biggest trouble here is that Celtic fans think everything they do is justified and fine and dandy, while they will twist just about anything that Rangers fans do.

 

 

The trouble with Celtic is that while they also have a bigoted minority, it is 100% condoned by the rest. That's a huge problem. Rangers are making inroads because the majority are condemning the minority. The majority of Rangers fans dislike all bigotry. Celtic fans condone some bigotry, condemn other bigotry and then twist things to make up some bigotry to be offended by for good measure.

 

 

Why are so many Celtic fans against even-handedness anyway - unless they are in the wrong?

 

Exactly - a fine post.

This is the problem we have in the central belt - no realisation and admission of wrong doing, like an alcoholic denying that he has a drink problem.

WE have been dragged over the coals and now realise the severity of our actions. How they can keep believing that they are untouchable and in the right is beyond me.

 

In my opinion the majority of hate (as i struggle to find a better word) directed towards those in green and white, is due to the fact that they continue to "get away" without being scrutinised by the mhedia the same as we do.

 

Just watch on saturday afternoon phone-in on Clyde 1 (not that i like this garbage) but you will have the same idiots calling in with a chip on their shoulder blaming us for singing the sash when in truth they also sat the whole game spouting Irish Republican songs and their FTQ ad-ons.

 

Unbelievable!

[BC2 0]

calscot ââ?¬â?? I certainly respect the quantity of what you write.

 

As an atheist I am one of the last people to defend any religion and agree that almost every single horrendous act against humanity throughout history has religion as its basis. I am concerned, however, that you seem to believe the Catholic Church is far more guilty in this respect than any other religion.

 

Comparisons between the Catholic Church and the Orange Order are made difficult by the fact that the Orangeism is not strictly a religion and also includes political aspirations, namely unionism, as a key part of its agenda. The acts of which you accuse the Catholic Church, however, are historical; the intolerant anti-catholicism of the Orange order continues. The Catholic Church is mainstream; the Orange Order is extreme. You then try and make a chicken and egg type argument. The Catholic Church was not founded with the hatred of the Orange Order as one of its corner stones. The Orange Order, however, would not exist without the Catholic Church. Which is the chicken and which is the egg seems clear enough to me.

 

Next you proceed to make some incredibly sweeping generalisations about catholics and protestants which even manages to offend an atheist with its arrogance, all of it seeming based on your opinion of a pal.

 

Your argument about the religious make up of the teams gets sillier and sillier. One thing Big Jock bloody well did know was that if had the choice of a catholic and protestant player of similar ability, he would sign the protestant as Rangers would never sign the catholic player. I am not damning the number 0; the number damns Rangers. You then seem to shoot yourselves in both feet and the genitals ââ?¬â?? why do you think Celtic, as you correctly claim, were able to choose the best of the 18%? Surely Rangers were trying to sign the best catholic players too? Werenââ?¬â?¢t they?

 

Without even trying, I can think of at least one Jewish Celtic player. He scored twice against you at Ibrox about 8 years ago if that helps you. What point are you trying to make anyway? It is a statistical inevitability that small groups will often be under or over represented. Think of your own club and former Austria Vienna players last season for an interesting example of the latter. 18% of a country with a population of 5 million people, however, is not a small number, and for Rangers to have gone decades without signing a single catholic is not some simple statistical anomaly.

 

If 30 (instead of 23) was a typo you must have a very unusual layout to your keyboard.

 

Maurice Johnstone may have been a hero to many Rangers fans, but you must recognise that a significant minority never accepted him. You must also recognise that the reaction of some Celtic fans was due to the fact he signed for Rangers after agreeing to resign for Celtic rather than simply the fact that he was a catholic playing for Rangers.

 

Even accepting that you genuinely define fen1an as you state, how many of your fellow fans do you think allude to this when they use the word?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that Rangers fans sing Billy Boys (being up to your knees in somebody�s blood usually means they�re dead) and FT P because catholics chose not to sign for Rangers?

 

Frankie butted in at this point and made the same mistake our impartial CEO of the SFA made. It is one thing to state that ââ?¬Ë?no-one can claim the moral high-groundââ?¬â?¢, but why is suggesting one is worse than the other false. Firstly (as Frankie has challenged me) where is the evidence? Why is the default position that both are equally bad? Secondly (and more importantly) surely statistically the chances of this in any case are absolutely miniscule. As I said earlier it is about as likely as your garden having exactly the same number of weeds as mine. Are Italian women exactly equally as beautiful or ugly as Belgian women? Itââ?¬â?¢s just nonsense.

 

You should choose or reject a team to support, but in Rangers� case they did actually reject catholic players and did effectively reject catholic supporters. Don�t you understand that?

 

Then we have more ridiculous generalisations. You pluck figures of 0% and 100% out of thin air. Rangersââ?¬â?¢ idea of acknowledging Billy Boys was to ask their fans to stop singing it in case the club was punished. I am still to hear ââ?¬Ë?Sirââ?¬â?¢ David, anyone else at Ibrox or even a single fan acknowledge it by asking their fans to stop singing it because it is plain wrong.

 

I accept most of your examples of false accusations of sectarianism. I could draw up a similar list for my club. You may not be aware that Celtic were very nearly thrown out of the league by the SFA for flying the Irish flag above their stadium in the 50s. I understand that Rangers, to their credit, supported Celtic. We are regularly criticised about republican songs. Gerry McNee, recently referred to ââ?¬Ë?Irish toshââ?¬â?¢ on Scotsport. Try substituting the word Pak1 in there and he would have been arrested. These examples, however, do not in the main form the basis of accusations of sectarianism made against your club. I am sure that there have been some Celtic fans with a low IQ and/or prejudice who hold these mistaken views and from time to time get their moment on some stupid phone in or in the letter section of their paper, but almost all of the constructive and informed criticism concerns FT P, Billy Boys and the like.

[CammyF 6,781]

Ready To Learn - this was a fantastic scheme that was started by Rangers some years ago (5-6 I can't remember). Anyway, the idea of 'Ready To Learn' was to invite certain local schools into Ibrox where they could use computers, have training with the coaches, receive free tickets to home games etc.

 

Well, the first school to benefit from this scheme was a local Catholic Primary School. The school selected 50 pupils to attend and all of them had a brilliant time - especially at the free match (I am sure it was against DUFC). Anyone, the teacher who arranged all this was approached by parents of the pupils who were constantly nagging them to see if they could get invited again, and to see if they could get Celtc to do something similar. The teacher phoned both Rangers and Celtc. Rangers thanked them for the positive feedback and agreed that after other local schools got their opportunity, then they would be welcome back with open arms. Sadly, the same couldn't be said about Celtc. Celtc basically told the teacher that since they were a Catholic School, Celtc didn't need to do anything special to ensure that the pupils 'grew up into Celtc fans'. Surfice to say that over 50% of the pupils that initially went to Ready To learn are now regulars at Ibrox

 

BC II - PM me and I will gladly give you the name of the school involved and give you the name of the Teacher (a family friend) and you can contact them to see if this is more 'antidocal' (sp) evidence or hard facts.

 

Craig, BC II like all Tims refuses to challange facts simply because they can not be challanged. Its the same with Spiers, he will gloss over any evidence that shows Celtc fans up in any bad light, yet pounce on anything remotely 'sectarian' linked to Rangers (orange shirts, grass cut like a sash etc).

 

BCII - lets have a cyber bet (for a cyber pint) about the first sectarian song on Saturday. I have named the song, told you exactly when it'll be sung. Lets hear your thought on this matter - let you name the song and when it'll be sung.

 

As for us not signing Catholics, well we signed our first Catholic 5 years before your team were formed. We then proceeded to continue to sign Catholics throw our entire history and we still sign Catholics to this very day. These Catholics are known to have suffered sectarian abuse, but not from Rangers fans - the Tims appear more upset than we do - wonder why that is. As for MoJo - Rangers attendances rose every season he played for us (funny that eh?) and it wasn't Rangers fans that attacked his father and continue to this day, to issue death threats to MoJo and his family.

 

For our 'Up to our kness' - you have your 'soon there will be no protestants at all' and for our 'F T P' you have your 'Henrick Larsson Mark Viduka, Fuck The Queen and Davie Cooper (Hes deid)'. I'll tell you what, I bet you hear your version a lot more this season than you hear ours.

 

But hey, we're the bigots, you lot are just jolly jaipsters.

 

Cammy F

 

PS - interested in hearing your thoughts on Jewish players. I know the one that you had complained about being racially abused by both his own supporters and team mates. This was around the same thime that Ian Shite stated that Celtc fans were 'reptiles' after he as abused and spat upon by fans.

 

PPS - BCII you still have acknowledge which of Glasgows big 2 clubs were formed purely out of the love of the game? I'll give you a clue, it wasn't Celtc