der Berliner

One day, an Orca might happen by an snap your fishing rod ...

Or whatever name we have if we liquidate & reform.

 

Personally, I think that 'formerly the most successful football club in the world' sounds good. :fish:

I think liquidation is no longer a possibility, is it?

->

If the Club goes into administration, will the tax tribunal case still proceed? What, if anything, will HMRC get if the tribunal rules there is tax to pay? And what about the Club's other creditors?

 

Yes the case will still proceed. Rangers are just one of a number of defendants to the case. If the tribunal rules in favour of HMRC then any claim they may have against the club will be unsecured and will rank alongside other unsecured creditors.

What will mean admin to us then? Losing 10 points and probably a title (though that remains to be seen). And some dignity too, perhaps? At least for a few weeks, month or the like. Sure the Hooped Horrors will have their laughs, yet, as the saying goes: haughtiness preceeds the fall. It is them running up debts right now with hardly any success to show for it. (And how will we laugh when they succumb in next season's CL qualifiers, which they will.) Does anyone really remember that Motherwell was in admin too?

Administration will be a sad episode indeed, but only an episode in our long history. We saw it all coming, we got a good amount of joy and success from the days that made today happen, so we have to face the music and dance. This is all history now and in months to come, the events of today and this next fortnight will be history too. Now we have to show the dignity that befits our club, at least to the outside world.

NB: And we will see in days to come how HMRC will run amok with other clubs over the use of EBTs and whatnot, won't we? (I have a strange feeling we won't and by then, questions should be asked.)

Unless I am mistaken, the right to play European football is earned by May 2012, when the league has finished. After that the clubs can check whether they receive a license from UEFA for it.

What we have to do is make sure the accounts will be signed sealed and delivered by March 31st to the SFA, so that we fulfill all their obligations. Once the HMRC case is being done or the administration process is going on, you would assume that all facts and figures will be relayed to the relevant places anyway. If we are still in administration by the time the teams apply for a European license, we will have a problem - unless there is some backdoor to this. So the sooner it all gets sorted the better.

All very laudable. I would willingly chip in. But not if CW is at the helm.

That is the point ... club membership schemes mean that slowly but steadily the club's ownership will shift into the hands of its members. They decide on the board et al. The problem with the British clubs is that many are being run by owners who invest most of the cash and thus want most of the say ... and fair enough. What needs to be done here is that the members both gets something for their membership fee as well as being certain that the money they invest is used wisely. Thus, you would not invest in anything chairman (be that Whyte or whomever), but Rangers FC.

On a sidenote, creating a model of club membership like it is being done in Germany or Spain would help to secure the club a certain nearly fixed amount of annual income that can used to rebuilt. It works on various levels over here, be that football, ice hockey or basketball. Pending on the annual membership fee (say 100 pounds) and the initial stuff related to it (discounts on products, tickets, et al; first pick for special tickets not included in season tickets, brick at Ibrox, you name it; shares), it might raise quite some money. If ever there was a chance to start it, it would be now. But that needs to be done by a institution the fans adore, maybe headed/fronted by people like Laudrup, Albertz, Novo and Co.. Will we get 40k people? Maybe not. But perhaps a few who are willing to buy more than one membership and thus getting access to more share or the like?

My opinion of blog Traynor's article? Utter dross.

A Q &A for the case of administration has been made available on the homepage. Maybe I'm the wrong person to disuss it, but these lines look to be the important ones.

If the Club goes into administration, will the tax tribunal case still proceed? What, if anything, will HMRC get if the tribunal rules there is tax to pay? And what about the Club's other creditors?

 

Yes the case will still proceed. Rangers are just one of a number of defendants to the case. If the tribunal rules in favour of HMRC then any claim they may have against the club will be unsecured and will rank alongside other unsecured creditors.

Snatched from FF

Originally Posted by Rustledust View Post

Here me out on this. I am in no way a huge fan of Craig Whyte but I still can't get my head around this suicide on his part.

 

Here's a theory.

 

We know that if Rangers enter administration, they need a CVA agreed by 75% of the overall debt owners in order to leave administration. That CVA is drawn up in terms of pence to the pound of debt.

 

The Ticketus deal was underwritten by another of Whyte's companies. - Let's be honest, Ticketus weren't going to write us a cheque for £24m with RFC's future in the balance. There was also a disclaimer in the circulation when Whyte came in that the money paid to Lloyds would be considered as RFC debt should the club enter administration, again owed to Wavetower.

 

Now that's £40m worth of debt.....all owed to Craig Whyte. If we've had news that the tax amount is less than £10m then that makes Craig Whyte sole party to 75%+ of the club's debt, thus any CVA drawn up only needs his approval and HMRC can sing for the ratio that he agrees. I remember Craig Whyte making comments regarding "under £15m being manageable".

 

Maybe we couldn't enter adminstration any sooner, as simply we didn't know the proportion of HMRC's debt and thus their percentage/rights in a CVA outcome.

 

If this is the case, I honestly can't think of any disadvantage other than the 10 point deduction.

 

I could be way off the mark, but there's no way Whyte is doing this just to spite us or to run off into the sunset...because admin means there's nothing for him to take. He may be doing it regardless of who would be entitled to what rights in the CVA, in that case, we're potentially screwed; but I hope he's more shrewd than that.

... but Vodafone could? Other companies could? Because their lobby is bigger than ours?

I see your point Bluedell, but the way HMRC decided that hardline approach right when it was the worst for us is ... well ...

Zappa

It looks like Whyte can't afford to keep the club running (no matter what the tax case outcome is) without going into administration.

No-one wants to bank or deal with us as it stands now and no-one on here thinks that one man will dig even deeper in his pocket to finance the club for much longer. Running costs are at 3.5m a month ... and Whyte is no sheikh.

This ...

"There is no realistic or practical alternative to our approach as HMRC has made it plain to the Club that should we be successful in the forthcoming tax tribunal decision, they will 'appeal, appeal and appeal again' the decision. This would leave the Club facing years of uncertainty and also having to pay immediately a range of liabilities to HMRC. Even if the Club were to succeed in the tax tribunal, it would still face substantial liabilities. Zero liability will not happen.

 

"Whilst it appears that a consensual restructuring looks unlikely outside of a formal insolvency procedure, the above steps, if agreement cannot be reached with HMRC, will bring an end to the legacy threat of closure and will provide stability required to enable the required investment to be made into the future of the Club.

 

"I can, however, reassure Rangers supporters that the Club will continue and can emerge as a stronger and financially fitter organisation that will compete at the levels of competition our fans have come to expect.

 

"At this point I would ask all Rangers supporters to continue to show the tremendous support they have shown to the Club, Ally McCoist, his management team and the players."

... is what I expected to read after the initial meltdown. As nothing else can be done today or for the time being, I think I quit the debate for now.

We have the Club's statement now and should relax somewhat ...

The Club will conduct its business as usual and will not be in administration until it decides whether to formally proceed with an application to appoint administrators.

What is the key issue seems to be the tone of the HMRC people who will proceed with their claim "no matter what" and thus essentially keep the club from operating. IMHO, this borders to extortion and coercion, no matter whether they have the right to do this or not.

Obviously, I assume that the result of the tax case will be known soon. We can all think of the worst case scenario, but e.g. if the bill is in the region of 20m, it would not mean "instant death" or something. If it is a technicality that has to be done, for the time being it is the best thing to wait and see.

This, btw, might be the time the Rangers support finally joins up and get their act together.

Well, we could all jump from the next building too, and it will not help one bit.

If this was always the plan, Whyte should have said that from the start.

I would assume that the outcome of the tax case was 50/50 at best, so he could at least wait till he knows it.

ANYWAYS ... before we all join the moon in orbit, we should wait what Rangers will have to say about this.

BTW, so far, this looks much more like a precautionary measure to me (though I have no clue how this process is being done):

HM Revenue and Customs guidelines state: "The appointment of the administrator will take effect within ten business days of the date the notice of intention is filed."

 

This period allows the company to speak to creditors to see if they reach an agreement. If they enter administration the Scottish Premier League champions will automatically be docked ten points.

 

Rangers FC are currently awaiting the result of a £49m tax case with HM Revenue and Customs in relation to the club's use of an Employee Benefits Trust to pay players and staff. It is thought the decision to lodge court papers means the result of this tax case is likely to be known imminently.

Essentially, the tax case can still go either way, unless Whyte and Co. knew the results before posting the letters.

On a sidenote, what do HMRC guidelines have to do with this? Unless I am mistaken, this is company/business stuff, not something for a tax and customs authority?

The point is, we hardly know what is actually being done right now. It could be done and dusted right now, Friday afternoon or May 14th. As long as we tie him up, no problem.

Some English reporter twittered that there might be news about the tax case pretty soon ... and right on queue, FF goes into orbit*!

* i.e.

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Whyte recently said that we want to tie up Aluko sooner rather than later.

... and for some it all fells nicely into place.

... well, at least he does speak to the various supporters groups, and on a nigh weekly basis.

More recently I was wondering whether the quitting of Greig and McLelland might have indeed to do with not liking Whyte as a person. Be that personality, age, or business dealings so far. Just wondering.

As for King, he's got more taxmen running after him that we have an average home support ... and for years. While he sure can give advice on that, his whole role at the club appeared to have been minimal. We do not know by now whom Whyte wants to be near to him, nor do we know the exact reasons why King left. Might put that question to him via the RST this week though.

You seem to believe the media when it suits.

You did read my remark about pinchs and cups of salt? Matter of fact, I tend to believe the words of Whyte as posted on the homepage and the Rangers supporters group's websites more (sic!) than what I read in any sort of press or media release. If you take this removal of King as an example, the whole way it is presented essentially oozes of antipathy towards Whyte ... when exactly how many people know how King and Whyte get along which each other?

Again, who is King apparently talking to here about stuff he would keep to himself if he's any dignity and loyalty to the club? If the above is actualy correct.

First, I did not read that garbage, since it will not state anything that has not been printed about half a dozen times by now.

I wonder why people even contemplate to speak about "Celtic's demands" or "demotion to some lower league". The SPL rules for administration are simple and ther for everyone to see. Should they find a new solution if we go into administration will surely be contested by RAngers. It did not happen to any other club of any stature before. The scum's demands simply show them up for what they are.

Staying out of Europe for three years. Yes, if we go down the drain and start as a new club, that will be the case. Why should we though? Simple administration does not work along those lines, what is painted here is the horror-scenario of pre-prac admin, which will hardly come to pass. What might occur is that we are still in administration over the summer or early next season and thus will not get a European license for next season. But whether we are in administration that long, or whether we are in adminstration at all still remains to be seen.